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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up.

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/29/2008 12:11:29 PM   
swartlkk


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The ICMs in these trucks are heat sensitive and can have heat related faults.  That is why to really test one, you need to load it up a few times to get the temperature up there.

And monitoring the timing from a scan tool won't really tell you much without monitoring the actual spark timing with a timing light on the engine.  If this problem only occurs while driving down the road, you might have a hard time using the timing light (remembers napa commercials from a few years back where the guy crawls all over the vehicle - LOL).  But you may see it by getting the truck all nice and warmed up, then having a friend slowly rev the engine with the truck in reverse, parking brake set, wheel chocks in place, and the brakes held while you monitor the actual timing with the light.  Don't do this too much or you may cook the transmission fluid, but enough to possible see the fault in action.  If the timing from the PCM and the timing read with the light line up, the problem lies elsewhere.

I'm not sure how places diagnose injector problems now, but I know that I used to do injector load tests by monitoring the fuel pressure as I energized each injector for a specific amount of time.  If the pressure drop was fairly uniform, there wasn't an injector problem.


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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/29/2008 1:40:22 PM   
BrianSw

 

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Once it starts to act up I can pull over put it in park and step hard on the gas and it will only rev up to about 2000 rpms or little less. So maybe it does not really need a load on it (the engine).
If I let it cool down for about 5 or so minutes it drives OK till it warms up again. Whatever it is that is warming up (or getting  hot) I don't know yet. Instead of going to the trouble of getting the ICM cooking hot and testing it at a parts store I'll just buy one. Think I should stick with ACDelco for this part? I replaced this unit acouple years ago and didn't put a ACDelco back in to it. The Acdelco's run about $100.00 as compaired to other brands maybe around $50-60 dollars.
I'm starting to notice it is not starting up right away now on the first turn of the key. Takes maybe acouple tries for it to crank over and run. Don't know if that is in anyway related or not. Mainly does it on a cold start.

Thanks,
Brian

< Message edited by BrianSw -- 1/29/2008 1:46:51 PM >

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/29/2008 9:09:52 PM   
HeyYou

 

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I was under the impression that the computer used the signal from the ICM to determine whether the engine was running (turning over) and used that information to determine whether to pulse the injectors or not. May be different on the newer motors though, I have not played with them as much....

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/30/2008 5:42:42 AM   
swartlkk


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When talking about the mid-95 and earlier distributors with the ICM in the base of the distributor, then you may be correct as I believe the ICM also doubled as a CMP sensor.  On the later models, the ICM was separate from the distributor and the distributor had a dedicated CMP sensor that the PCM used for injection & spark timing calculations.

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/30/2008 8:17:53 AM   
BrianSw

 

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Well, not good news I guess. Bought a new ACDelco ICM and put it in. Drove the car for about 10 or so miles and still doing the same thing. So, I guess the ICM wasn't defective after it got hot. Back to the drawing board.
Recorded some live data during the test drive. Noticed that when I floored the gas pedal when it was acting up ( losing power and bucking) the TPS sensor was at 100 % and then the computer went into Open Loop. No codes though. This shows on my scanner but when I transfered the data to my computer to create a report it showed the last 2 frames as Closed looped. Maybe just an error in how it send the data to the computer. Looks like all my 02 sensors are not outputing anything or very little. I'll attach a text file here to show the captured frame data.

So far replaced Fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure reg., New Air Filter, throttle body cleaned inside/out and new gasket seals, TPS sensor, Distributer cap and rotor, Ignition module, IAC valve, Cleaned EGR, New ACdelco Plugs (eliminated misfires created by Bosch plugs), New Plug wires, 2 new upstream 02 sensors (elimanated 02 sensor code). Looked at MAF sensor and wasn't really too dirty. Checked many electrical connections to sensors, Checked for worn or deteroriated vacuum lines (replace a few).
I am finding some transmission oil in the line to purge canister. Pulled the ball canister off from under the hood and it was half filled with transmission fluid. Did I over fill transmission maybe? Could this tranny fluid have gone elsewhere and screwing things up?
Have not replaced the PCV valve as I just sprayed carb cleaner in it and it rattles when shook.
Brian

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BrianSw -- 1/30/2008 9:20:50 AM >

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 1/30/2008 9:51:36 AM   
swartlkk


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I think I remember seeing OL operation at WOT with my Autoenginuity scanner on my Bravada as well so I'm not sure I would be too concerned with that.  I don't think I recorded that particular status though and I don't have my scans at work with me.

The STFT & LTFT values have me a bit perplexed...  They display as percentages...  25% is HIGH for a fuel trim, let alone STFTs of 50%... 

A snap shot of your O2 sensor voltages will never look quite right and I'm not sure what your scanner is reporting on the O2 sensors as a percentage...  You should be looking at your O2 sensor cross counts if it is available.  That will be a direct reading of the activity of the sensor.

It is possible there is an intermittent ground somewhere in the system or that the PCM is at fault.  Now, don't go running out and buying a brand new PCM to 'try out'.  If you have a junkyard close by, go snag a PCM out of another '97 Blazer and drop it in.  You should be able to get one from a junkyard for around $50 (going rate at the local pick-n-pull yard).  If you are lucky, you can even return it if it doesn't work for a refund!  LOL

Have you tried removing the O2 sensor directly ahead of the catalytic converter and driving it like that?  It'll be loud, but if that cures the problem, then it is possible that something is causing the catalytic converter to plug up when really hot...


< Message edited by swartlkk -- 1/30/2008 9:58:59 AM >


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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 3:04:52 AM   
hernandez3674

 

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Dude, like I said before its the cat.. demand that the dealer replace it.. its probably still under warranty...

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 7:32:08 AM   
BrianSw

 

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Longterm (25%) and shortterm (50%) fuel trims are pegged at max I guess from what I read elsewhere. Yet O2 sensor voltages have dropped to near 0 volts output. This is when it is the most serious. Something really wrong here.
I just replace my Ignition Coil with a new ACdelco one last night. It was one of my last hopes. Well this morning same thing after about 15 miles it lost most of it's power. Couldn't even make it up an off ramp on the thruway. Shut it down for about 2 to 3 minutes, restarted, then it had much power and I made up the off ramp and to work. Was really bad also on the way home from work last night. Lucky I was able to get it up to 10 mph.

Engine ground? Well I don't know where they all are, but would that effect everything? All my sensor readings? For instance my TPS sensor gets 10 volts in, and a ground, with a variable voltage out. Seems that is working correctly according to my scanner. No noisy voltage spikes or dropouts.

The PCM/ECM possible problem if it is bad. But to turn car off for acouple minutes when acting up, and back on, then works normally for awhile seems strange to me. As if there was something overheating in the computer. But 2 to 3 minutes wouldn't seem like enough time for any electronic part to cool down enough to start working normally again. After restarting it this morning on that exit ramp I must have driven it for about 5 more minutes and didn't act up really bad where I couldn't accelerate. Still not leaving that option out though.

The same would go for the CAT gets plugged but 2 to 3 minutes to cool down makes it unplugged? Humm?

So, I read more and more on this forum about people with similar problems. The MAF sensor is now coming to mind as it can effect fuel trim maybe by alot if faulty, or really dirty. I looked at it didn't look dirty to me but maybe I have no idea what a clean one really looks like either. I'm not getting any MAF sensor fault codes.

I'm going to unplug the the MAF sensor before I leave for home tonight and watch my fuel trims and O2s and see what happens.

Suppose I could stop by a parts store and pick up a cleaning spray for it anyways.

Also wondering about a broken clip that hold the plastic cover on to my throttle body. The clip broke off and the cover is still held on with a plastic lug like thing. So, I suppect I'm getting alittle more air into the throttle body then what is just passing through the MAF sensor because the cover is not fully tight on the throttlebody. Don't know how much a difference that would make as problems should arise even when the after driving just acouple miles.

Guess I should focus on these excessive fuel trim values as a clue to what is going on.

Thanks,
Brian

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 7:46:51 AM   
swartlkk


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A leak behind the MAF will cause problems all of the time if it is a constant leak.

The MAF is constantly being read by the PCM for use in determining the operating characteristics of the motor.  Unplugging it will determine if it is possibly contributing to the problem.

One thing that does come to mind is the switch from open loop to closed loop.  When you restart the vehicle, there will be a period of time when the engine will be in open loop operation while the PCM monitors sensors to verify that conditions are right to go to closed loop.  This shouldn't be 2-3 minutes though... 


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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 8:55:22 AM   
BrianSw

 

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Just can't help think that something is overheating somewhere. As for last night I lost alot of power. It was pretty bad. I pulled over into a parking lot and sat there for about 5 minutes with the engine off. Restarted it and was able to drive it maybe about another 7 miles without a major problem. It did start to get bad (slightly noticeable) during that time but I kept the speed at about 45mph and made it home. So, I'll do the MAF thing (unplugging it).
Thought about it being a timing issue. Timing belt/chain but thinking about that didn't seem to make any sense unless the belt is expanding due to heat and throwing off the timing (if it's a belt and not a chain). But then again shutting down and restarting shouldn't temporary cure that problem.
I do notice the OpenLoop operation for acouple minutes until the ECM checks everything then switches over to closed after running for a minute or two. Last night I took more data as it was acting up but it remained in closed loop operation the whole time. 
Fuel trims were jumping high and O2s were barely showing any output.
Here is just one frame of this data.
STFT B1 % 35.1
LTFT B1 % 25.0
STFT B2 % 37.5
LTFT B2 % 25.0
MAP (inHg) 17.4
RPMs 1295
Speed (mph) 20 <Ready to race now
Spark Advance(degrees Cyl #1) 30
IAT (F degrees) 64
MAF (lb/min) 2.846
TPS (%) 10.9
O2S B1 S1 (v) 0.0  <Nothing?
STFT B1 S1 (%) 49.4
O2S B1 S2 (v) 0.015
STFT B1 S2 (%) NA
O2S B1 S3 (v) .110
STFT B1 S3 (%) NA
O2S B2 S1 (v) 0.0 <again
STFT B2 S1 (%) 50
FUEL Sys 1&2 in Closed Loop
Calc Load (%) 10.5
ECT (degree F) 199

Not normal is O2 sensors and Fuel trim. With upstream O2 sensors being at 0.0 does it mean it sees perfect conditions and is not affecting the fuel trim? Think maybe I should get a better look at the O2 sensor wiring harness? Possible break somewhere? Yet fuel trim is way high.


Brian

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 10:15:06 AM   
swartlkk


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I really am questioning if the PCM is working properly.  Almost looks like it is dropping the reference to the O2 sensors when it is acting up.  It is possible that there is a temperature (expansion) dependant fault in the PCM that is causing this and by shutting it off for a few minutes, the circuitry is cooling down to a point where it can once again function.  Have you tried logging the O2 sensor data when it is acting appropriately and comparing that to the poor performance data?

The next step I would take would be a trip to a junkyard (or phone calls), attempting to locate a used PCM from a '97.  You will want to know how many O2 sensors (3 or 4) you have as that is the only appreciable difference between the PCMs in '96-mid'97 and mid'97-'01.


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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/1/2008 10:41:57 AM   
BrianSw

 

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Ok, that will be next. I did just now take apart the MAF and it had lots of carbon on the wires. I did do a short trip with the sensor disconnected and seemed like the engine had alot more power to it. (Burnt some rubber). It put the Check Engine light on. I cleaned off the carbon on the wirs and the three little sensors. Put it all back together but ran the vehicle but the CEL still stays on now. Maybe take a few starts before it goes out? I'll test this on the way home tonight see if it made any difference. After that, if don't work it's off to the junk yard.

Thanks,
Brian

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 3:20:30 AM   
hernandez3674

 

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Can i have it... I will replace the converter and have a great running truck..

http://www.ae92gts.com/ae92gts_cat_symptoms.html
http://www.sunjournal.com/specialsection/fcar05/20051006162.php?DirID=615

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 5:45:31 AM   
swartlkk


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Your point?  The fact that this problem isn't always there leads me away from the cat as I have stated in this thread already.  That and the fact that fuel trims wouldn't be pushed to all the way rich with a failed cat either.  If anything, they would be trying to lean the mixture back out.  This sounds like a sensor/pcm problem, not a cat problem.

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 2:43:17 PM   
BrianSw

 

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I'm pretty sure it's not the cat at least right now.

Ok, here is what happend on my way home from work after claening off the MAF sensor. Maybe drove a good 10 miles then the engine just made a loud thud like noise. It's hard to explain the sound. My MIL(CEL) light went on. Had my scanner on as always, ready to capture data incase the something happened. Turned out I had preliminary codes at first that my 2 upstream O2 sensors (bank 1 & 2 sensors 1) had low circuit voltage. Then I guess the computer then ran a check on them again before throwing the actual codes and turning on my check engine light. I captured data with 10 frames before the trigger from the CEL coming on, and 9 from after the trigger, as well as the trigger frame. Well during the whole period 20 frames my O2 sensors (all of them (4)) had no output at all (were 0 volts or very near 0, and the computer was running in open loop mode the whole time.
So, something is a mess. Only my 2 upstream sensors bank 1 and 2 gave codes. The other 2 before cat and after cat did not. My short term and long term fuel trims were maxed at 50 and 25% before the CEL trigger and after the trigger went to Short 0 % and long 6.25 %.
I trigger in the middle as to capture 10 frames before the event and 9 after it.

Today in the morning I started up the vehicle and watch everything. While the car is running code it's goes into open loop mode till it warms up. During open loop my 02 sensors were operating normally like the should, Fuel trims were changing like they should too. Car finally warmed up and switch into closed loop and still 02 sensors were switching as normal.

I don't exactly know what is happening but when the vehicle runs from awhile the o2 sensors lose their voltage and I guess the computer goes into open loop. But why do the fuel trims jump to 25 and 50%, then after the CEL came on they went down? This is crazy. The car then runs horrible with complete loss of any power.
I thought maybe grounds to the O2s could be a problem, But I can't find them. They are mentioned in Mitchell's (I have Mitchell's OnDemand for my Blazer) wiring diagrams that they (grounds for o2 sensors) are located behind "rear left and rear right of cylinder head". How the heck can someone see them there. I can even get my hands back there to feel around. The ground to the VCM is also located rear right cylinder head. Can't see it anywhere. But as I'm thinking if the VCM was acting up from a bad ground the thing would keep resetting itself (clearing codes).
Problem must lie in the VCM itself as it may not be providing the .450 volts to my O2 sensors after awhile when hot. 
My O2 sensor grounds are all tied together and suppose to be connected to the engine I take it (again rear of cylinder head).
They don't make this easy do they? Putting ground connections places were you can reach them or see them.


Brian

Edited: Just adding if the ECM/VCM supplies about .450 volts to all the O2 sensors (all 4 of them), and they all get that voltage from the same supply rail in the ECM/VCM what if one sensor starts to short out when it get really hot. Wouldn't that cause or make all 4 O2 sensors fail? Providing that they are all feed the same voltage from the same source. This is just a thought. I only replace my 2 upstream sensors. There are 2 others that are still original. Wondering if one of those going bad can affect all the others.
This is kinda along the same lines as if all the O2 sensors were grounded at the same point and that ground went bad then all sensors would not work.

The reason for this thinking is because all my 02 sensors drop to 0 volts when the problem is occuring. So they must all be getting there supply voltage from the same source point. If one sensor is shorting to ground internally might it kill the supply to all the other sensors?
The ECM/VCM is only supplying about .5 volts to the s

< Message edited by BrianSw -- 2/2/2008 4:00:04 PM >

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 4:46:29 PM   
swartlkk


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You will find the O2 sensor schematic for your truck attached.  The only thing that I would think would influence this in terms of a grounding problem would be the main PCM ground which should affect MANY other things as well.  The ground for the O2 sensors only services the heater element.  The PCM supplies ground to each individual sensor.  It also reads the voltage generated by each O2 sensor (yep, the O2 will generate its own voltage based on O2 content of the exhaust).



Based on the schematic above and the fact that all 4 sensors are dropping out to nothing, I do believe this is a PCM failure.

Here is a link for ya: Oxygen (O2) Sensors: Diagnose and Replace




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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 6:12:06 PM   
BrianSw

 

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OK, so this is maybe where I'm confused. The O2 sensors actually generate their own voltage? My belief was that they were fed about .5 volts from the PCM then the O2 sensor varied that voltage and send that back out to the PCM to read. Kind of like how the TPS sensor works. It is fed 10 volts in on one lead and ground on another, and a variable voltage out on another which is sent back to the PCM. Simple representation of a potentiometer in ASCII which is just what a TPS sensor is.  

10v in---|
           |
            \
            /
            \<-----Out 0 - 10 volts
            /
            \
            /
           |
Gnd-----|


Brian

< Message edited by BrianSw -- 2/2/2008 6:17:25 PM >

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/2/2008 6:28:20 PM   
swartlkk


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The O2 sensors do generate their own voltage.  It is not a potentiometer like the TPS sensor.

From the link I posted above:
quote:


HOW IT WORKS
The O2 sensor works like a miniature generator and produces its own voltage when it gets hot. Inside the vented cover on the end of the sensor that screws into the exhaust manifold is a zirconium ceramic bulb. The bulb is coated on the outside with a porous layer of platinum. Inside the bulb are two strips of platinum that serve as electrodes or contacts.
The outside of the bulb is exposed to the hot gases in the exhaust while the inside of the bulb is vented internally through the sensor body to the outside atmosphere. Older style oxygen sensors actually have a small hole in the body shell so air can enter the sensor, but newer style O2 sensors "breathe" through their wire connectors and have no vent hole. It is hard to believe, but the tiny amount of space between the insulation and wire provides enough room for air to seep into the sensor (for this reason, grease should never be used on O2 sensor connectors because it can block the flow of air). Venting the sensor through the wires rather than with a hole in the body reduces the risk of dirt or water contamination that could foul the sensor from the inside and cause it to fail.
The difference in oxygen levels between the exhaust and outside air within the sensor causes voltage to flow through the ceramic bulb. The greater the difference, the higher the voltage reading.
An oxygen sensor will typically generate up to about 0.9 volts when the fuel mixture is rich and there is little unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When the mixture is lean, the sensor output voltage will drop down to about 0.2 volts or less. When the air/fuel mixture is balanced or at the equilibrium point of about 14.7 to 1, the sensor will read around .45 volts.


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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/3/2008 6:23:56 PM   
HeyYou

 

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Well now. That explains why one wire sensors work. Interesting. I never knew that. Thank you.

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RE: 97 Blazer Loss Engine Power after warm up. - 2/4/2008 7:07:35 AM   
BrianSw

 

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swartlkk,
Latest update,

Ok, car is still losing power as always. This time I watch everything that was going on and when. As I was driving to work I monitored my O2 sensors as well as my Fuel trims. I was about halfway to work about 7-10 miles of driving. I started noticing a sight loss of power going up hill. Saw my O2 sensors droping in voltage (about .030) and not switching. My Fuel trims jump up to 25 and 50%. As I made my way down hill every returned back to normal. O2 sensors were switching over there full range and fuel trims drop back down. Again, I hit another part of the highway going uphill and the same thing happened. Computer was still in closed looped operation. It was getting worse everytime I went up hill and put more load on the engine.
When I go home its always mainly an all uphill drive and that is when I have major loss of power and need to pull off the highway and sit it out till everything cools down.
Now I am just for the sake of it thinking about the cat. If it is being plugged and the exhaust is not flowing or is being restricted can that cause my O2 sensors to output very little voltage because they are not getting the exhaust the need to create the signals? Thereby sending my fuel trims way up. Maybe it's not a huge restriction in the cat but enough to cause this problem on heavy loads.
When I pulled the car over to the side of the road without turning it off and punch the gas to the floor I was able to see the same thing. O2s drop way down and fuell trims jump up. I think when this happens really bad for awhile then the computer goes into open loop operation but still exibits the power loss.
What do you think about this?

Brian

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