Brackets and pulleys
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Brackets and pulleys - 12/30/2005 10:13:55 PM
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blazingsadle
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Am new to this particular conversion. Donor 4.3 will not have brackets and pulleys. I am taking out the 2.8 and am under the impression that nothing to less will fit. So other than buying brand new from factory, what is the plan? I wouldnt mind chrome or better but only see products for v8's. Is it possible that the v8 small block parts actually fit? Please tell me this is so????? If not I guess I'll be travelling to the boneyards.
< Message edited by blazingsadle -- 12/30/2005 10:15:10 PM >
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 12/31/2005 9:40:54 AM
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swartlkk
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I'm not sure if any v8 brackets will fit. I would just grab everything from the junkyard. Be careful with the aluminum peices as they tend to get brittle the older they get. I don't know if they used the aluminum brackets in the year range you're talking about, but if they do, just a word to the wise.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 12/31/2005 12:55:30 PM
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timetoblaze
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i have stock crank and alt pulleys for my 4.3 if you want them i will let them go for cheap
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/4/2006 8:14:39 PM
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blazingsadle
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Just got the motor here and am really finding some interesting stuff. 1. Does a v8 waterpump work? Parts store shows two different parts, one for v8 and one for 4.3. Could that difference be in the distance AWAY from the block that the pully run? I measured the actual sizes between boltholes and such and found the v8 pump and the v6 pump to be the same. This is 1992 regular, not vortec. I also measured the distance that a v8 crank pulley would be from the timing cover to the second v belt out and noticed that IF an Alternator similar to one for a v8 with v belt were used, they would also be the same.
So where do I get into trouble? Did factory really want to create a DIFFERENT distance for the newer cars with the serpentine belt? Why would the waterpump be new and different? Lets assume I have one that will turn in the same direction.
If i were to substitute a standard v belt arrangement in the bottom, it would do the job with a WHOLE v belt system. now; I am not saying I wish to run V belts, but its the only solution I see to getting all chrome parts on the front of this motor.
Tell me whats going on here? This engine came with no brackets or alternator, water pump is missing.
I have another question. When I look at a 229 manifold with carb, and the 4.3 fuel injection laying next to it, how come they look like they would fit each others motors? Bet the porting is off, or different, but the bolts are the same.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/4/2006 10:21:25 PM
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swartlkk
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As far as the waterpump, it mostlikely is the same casing, size and all, but a different sized impeller in the housing. A v8 pump would have a higher flow and/or pressure than a v6 pump due to the area in the block and the difference in restrictions throughout the system. So the use of a v8 pump, although it may bolt up fine and possibly even run fine, would more than likely cause seal failures in the block due to higher pressures created by the waterpump.
With the intakes... I don't have an answer on that subject. What is a 229 manifold? Are you suggesting that you want to use the 229 mani? A simple gasket comparison would show you if they would work. You'd also have to check the deck height of each block to make sure that it would even seal in the lifter valley as well as work with the distributor installed height.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 9:49:11 AM
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blazingsadle
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Guess you could say that the suggestion as a WHOLE is that while everyone is not paying attention the simple truth is that aftermarket parts are very scarce for an engine that should have a huge supply of such parts available because they are available for the sbc. The timing cover, for instance, my 4.3 and my 350 are identical. It is also a fact that this is not true for later models of the 4.3. The 4.3 drifted further and further away from its original design as it became more and more developed.
What gets me is this. If I look at an add for a timing chain cover, why does it not say; "also fits so and so 4.3, blah blah blah."
There is a huge gap in what will fit with these motors and what advertising or the factory is willing to tell us.
Your discussion of the v8 impeller and pressure as compared to the v6 is probably correct. But it is also correct that on this very same aftermarket supply there are numerous HIGH Pressure and HIGH volume pumps available for the v8 with no mention whatsoever of the dangers of their use.
If the marketing guys would simply sell things for the 4.3 and sell them at a fair price, like they do for the sbc, they might make lots of us happy.
The aluminun brackets on the front of the modern engines do NOT last. They break. I have NEVER seen anything as simple as a steel alternator bracket for the old v belts break smack dab in half and we were tooling along at 6500 rpm, not limited. We had to adjust and change belts more often, thats all.
Anyone know of a decent distributor made as competently as any of the aftermarket ones for the sbc????
Information such as this is needed in our hobby unless we are all millionaires and let others do the work. We need to publish any of the information we might gather and give others a chance to use it.
A really good for instance is this one. lets see the price of gas. About 30 cents a gallon even ten years after the sbc v8 was first designed. If I had a work van right now and simply wanted more economy, i would simply yank out the v8 and replace it with a nice, well running v6 that would not have any smog controls cause the car it was going into didnt. I would be making an overall improvement in the situation for everyone, the environment and ME. Yet few have the knowledge that perhaps every part on the front of the motor is interchangable. Just looking at the price of a starter. A sbc v8 is 35 bucks here. A 4.3 is 65, yes different, but lighter duty, I would suspect. Anyone for honesty?
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 11:02:44 AM
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Hanr3
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Where to begin.
80% positive all external components from a SBC V8 will fit on the 4.3L V6 engine provided you have the corresponding brackets, water pump, and timing cover. All the V8 brackets should bolt to the V6, there might be issues with the accesories (alt, a/c, etc) you have fitting on those brackets, as the accesories mounting locations have changed some over the years. However the mounting holes in the block didn't change for like the last 20 years. Exceptions, would be the exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, oil pan, etc. GM even uses the same tranny for both the 4.3L V6 and SBC V8 engines.
The brackets off a V8 should fit on the 4.3L, although the best bracket (IMHO) to use would be off the 4.3L out of an Astro van. It is one bracket, not several brackets. Should be an easy bracket to locate in the salvage yards. Plus make sure you use the parts that will fit on the bracket(s) you use.
There is a difference in the timing covers and water pumps. When GM went from V-belts to serp belts the water pump changed flow directions, and to get the clearance needed to fit the water pump the timing cover was modified. If your going with serp belts, make sure you have the correct timing cover and water pump for it. Ditto for v-belts. Plus watch your radiator as well. I believe the hose connections switched sides when they went from v-belts to serp belt as well.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 11:27:00 AM
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blazingsadle
Posts: 237
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Yeah sorta what I figured. My tape measure showed this. The waterpump is available in both clockwise and counter for the model I have. I believe any that will bolt up can be made normal rotation if the FULL serpentine sytem is not used. I have a camaro with "FLAT BELT". Thats what I like to call it. Two v belts for the power steering and a serp type for the water, alternator. Never use air pumps or air cond pumps. I posted some good gas mileage figures somewhere and this is the best reason. Only the wife gets air conditioning. Hers is stock, hardest one to maintain.
Happen to have a shed full of sbc parts and this motor came with nothing on it for a very good price. Seems solid as it sits. Pulled heads and pan. Looks good. Am replacing a 2.8 anyway and also changing tranny to th350. I just happen to have one. I intend to add headers and chrome engine out, but the pulleys dont seem available in stock, so I started noticing the resemblance. There were no parts on the front of the 4.3 otherwise I might be like everyone else; jumping to the conclusion that a different motor has different parts. A chrome waterpump is nice but certainly not available for 4.3, so I wonder, thats all. If you have to buy all new anyway, why do it later?
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 11:57:24 AM
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swartlkk
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I have to ask the question then. Why not go to a v8 if you are attempting to use v8 components. Although things may work, it'll be a headache if you need to get replacement parts. Nothing like having a bastardized vehicle to try to get parts for... Atleast if you were to just put a v8 in it, you could simply ask for the stuff for that engine. With a truck that came with a 2.8L that now has a 4.3L with a 350 accesory drive system... LOL Seems like alot of hassle.
Why not just get the proper brackets and stuff from a junk yard? Seems like a whole lot of trouble for alittle bit of bling under your hood. And in all honesty, you could chrome out the stock components for really not alot of money (afew hundred max).
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 11:59:16 AM
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swartlkk
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And your arguement about fuel mileage. A v8 can be made just as efficient in the same vehicle as a v6, i4, etc. It's all in the tune.
*EDIT* - Also, I have NOT seen a single aluminum bracket failure in any one of the 6 farm trucks we have owned over the years that came equiped from the factory with them! Two trucks have had 3 different motors in them all with the same accessory drive bracketry. Brackets that were removed and reinstalled twice per vehicle. If something were going to happen, it would have. And these trucks saw more than 35% of thier total mileage in fields being driven quite a bit faster than prudent through ruts and general disturbances found in untilled fields. Again, if they had a problem, they would have broken.
**EDIT** - I believe the timing cover changed with the addition of the balance shaft to the 4.3L.
< Message edited by swartlkk -- 1/5/2006 12:43:49 PM >
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 1:22:30 PM
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blazingsadle
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I dont agree that any s10 sized body-wheelbase is safe with a v8. The car (two door s10 Blazer) is too short and narrow for safety. Now I do agree that lots of folks do this swap. That does not convince me that the swap is safe. Its quite possible that GM agrees somewhere along the way cause they used pretty much the same drivetrain, tranny, rear, brakes, etc in the camaro while offering the V8 and NOT the 4.3. I think they inderstood that the weight and torque created with a v8 would make it a strange vehicle. Not so in the lower camaro. Lowering the conversion is one route and I see many that way. But the largest factory engine in the s10 series has been the 4.3.
My dad was a real serious mechanic. Used to ride around race courses with him when Stirling Moss was still around. Yes even those cars had room for a SMALL passenger, right next to the driver. He told me a little known fact once. The amount of fuel and air in proper mixture is completely and utterly related to the volume of the cylinder. It takes more mixture to fill more space. He started on prop planes and continued as a car mechanic. That one little fact has always remained constant to this day. Given identical build and tuning a smaller motor will always use less gas given a normal weight to move.
What I wanted was a nice looking engine compartment. I just looked at a friends 4.3 in his Blazer. Real nice car, lots of work. Manifold, 4barrel, chrome headers, plenty of "stuff". Engine compartment did not reflect. No shiny anywhere other than the headers, air cleaner, they were shiny. Thats all, a nice engine compartment. Thats all I want.
What is so hard about buying different parts? The stock motor was a 2.8, the stock tranny a 700R4 to go with it. If I am adding a 4.3 with a th350, what difference will brackets and pulleys make? When buying a belt or two?
We all have opinions and I have mine. Simply put: If the aftermarket guys would sell some "stuff" we'd be in better shape. Considering they already make that "stuff" and dont label it, I think I have a point.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 1:48:28 PM
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swartlkk
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I understand where you are coming from, but you are a pioneer, plain and simple. I commend you for your efforts and would like to have a clear cut answer for you. The simple fact is that no one here has even remotely tried what you are proposing. Your best bet would probably be to go to a junk yard, pull some parts that you would like to compare and try bolting them on to an engine like yours. Other than buying everything you want and finding out after you receive it that it won't work, that is really the only other way to do it unless you can find someone somewhere that has tried what you are attempting.
Simply put, my Bonneville with lower hp, smaller motor gets the same mileage as my parents Caddy STS when driven the same. When we went up to old forge last year, we both got identical mileage driving one behind the other. A 3.8L v6 vs a 4.6L v8. We both got 26mpg on the drive up and 27mpg on the way back. Now, these are not technically an apples to apples comparison as one is a supercharged pushrod v6 while the other is a n/a 32valve DOHC v8, but the weight of the vehicles is practically identical (STS is slightly heavier than the Bonnie - less than 200lbs) and the drivetrain configuration is again almost the same (4T80E in the STS vs the 4T65E in the Bonnie). Real world numbers not theories. But, I'll agree to disagree with you on the size of the engine debate.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 5:11:29 PM
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blazingsadle
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Well as usual most theories are just that, but non of them are ever wrong "in theory". Just for everyone's info, I posted an add a couple of days back in the "PARTS WANTED" of this site for the factory brackets and pulleys, need the whole set. My other theory is that the factory aluminum, if in one piece, can be highly polished with some hard work and then sealed to hold the shine. I have not heard that one yet as an accomplishment. I have also not read everything I can on the subject yet. Any of you try that?
Just had to see what I could get for answers and I am really curious why no one sells the stuff.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/5/2006 5:19:34 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 15276
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Yes, the aluminum brackets can be polished or better yet, powder coated. There are even powder coatings that are similar to chrome, but not as brilliant and don't forget that the aluminum itself can be chromed.
Car-Parts.com may yield some results for you.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/6/2006 12:17:31 AM
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Hanr3
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Wow this thread went goofy. Not sure why.
The only problem I see with your plan, is the various brackets were designed to fit inside a specific engine compartment, and not all engine compartmetns are created equal.
I will have to disagree with you on the wheelbase to engine size. I can see where GM decided the power to weight ratio falls within x realm, and that is what they follow. However I have seen some very big engines in some very small trucks do some amazing things offroading. We are talking very large tires, and 1 ton drivetrains stuffed into 100" wheelbase vehicles.
I give you the WhiteKnight. This rig started out as a S10-Blazer, and under its current morph you wouldn't know that. Check out hte videos of this truck, especially the early years, it is extremely capable and running some serious power in a short wheel base rig, that is not low to the ground.
Its all in how you build it.
WhiteKnight
there is even a Boss Hogs bike shop down teh street from where I work. This guy stuffs 502 big block engines into motorcycles and trikes. Doesn't get any more extreme then that.
I am into the off-raoding thing and there are guys swapping 4.3L engines into all sorts of things. It is a very popular engine for the exact reason you gave. Teh volume of air to fuel mixture. 250 pounds of toruqe from a V6 is incredable, espeically considering that 20 years ago not even sbc where pushing that kind of power.
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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
-President Ronald Reagan
'87 S10-Blazer - SOLD
'93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done.
'00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/6/2006 9:18:39 AM
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blazingsadle
Posts: 237
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Modified trucks can do lots of things. I am hoping very much that I can actually change the body just right to get 235/75/15 tires on the darn thing. NOT lift it. This is NOT going to be a highly modified vehicle. I just wish those of us facing the future with smaller motors would have the same access as I do with the v8's. When you think about something as silly and simple as brackets and pulleys things are being neglected in a big way for the v6 gm crowd. When the manufacturers simply DO NOT tell us that their stuff will work or at least sell them in sets that will work, we have a problem.
I also have a sbc with both v and serp pulleys. The serp covers the alt and waterpump while the v belts do steering. The air used to be serp. Cannot find serp pulley and v belt combo units such as are stock on the car. Why is this so. Because the few years affected wont make the aftermarket enough money. I bet there will be 4 and 6 cylinder motors far longer than those v8's
I would never have brought up the subject were the information commonly available and advertised. This is the void that forums like this fill.
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RE: Brackets and pulleys - 1/6/2006 3:48:24 PM
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blazingsadle
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Somewhere I mentioned that a carb intake from a 229 looked much the same patterns as the 4.3. A little history may be in order here. This will help all of us understand the bracket, pump, ect issues involved. Interchangabilty is important. Several things come to mind. Edelbrock based their carb manifolds on four barrel replacement for this engine. Now also available for the 4.3.
The original 4.3 aint so original. It was once a very simple 200 cube v6 in about 1978. It then became the now famous 229. Famous cause it was still with us as a 3.8. Really more of a 3.7+ motor, but we rounded her up. This one came about in about 1980 and evolved to the 4.3 in 1985 or so. I believe the 3.8 to be based on the 305 bore and the 4.3 to be based on the 350 bore.
Yes I do happen to own a 3.8 block. Got it YEARS ago before I got a puter good enough to get on the web with. Any one want it? Heads are a little rusty but block was stored in grease.
Am proceeding to look for brackets that went with that motor, though I dont think I had any of them either. Seems someone said; hey just take them off the v8, at the time.
ANY brackets from any of these motors should fit along with ANY v8 setup as long as we do not discuss the VORTEC and balance shaft motors. And of course they all come from one engine. Yes balance shaft caused timing chain cover difference. Untill that point, the timing covers were all the same.
Interchangabilty for the waterpump I only see mentioned for Edelbrock. Their shiny pumps are available as a just one part number for all 90 degree engines wether they be v6 or v8. They are available in BOTH rotations and also for vortecs. Meaning that they are different for vortec engines, but when both are vortec, the v6 and v8 are the same part number. Not that I will buy one. It is entirely possible that the parts house tha lists them that way is completely wrong. Cannot attest to any solid testing information myself, just reading a web site.
No, I didnt know any of this before exept that the 229 was also a six based on the v8.
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