RE: Projected Gains
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/10/2006 1:58:25 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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My butt-dyno read 20-25 hp @ the wheel. The more you put on performance part the more you get out of other performance parts. For instance I got a efan right and then I put on performance pullies. I will get more power combined cuase I got both of them than somone that has just one. Lets say you have the efan and someone else had pullies each of you get 5 from each, but I get 20 from both get it. The same goes with the ignition parts and the hypertech combined they get greater power. So everything combined is a butt kicking blazer
< Message edited by ivannj -- 2/10/2006 2:16:37 PM >
_____________________________
97 Blazer LS 4wd 4.3l 2dr 71,000 miles
E-fan, Low Drag Pullies, Intake, Gibson Exhuast, B&M Deep Tranny Pan, B&M Shift Plus, Hypertech Tuner, TB Spacer
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/12/2006 5:40:13 PM
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4lowlife
Posts: 1562
Joined: 12/29/2005
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quote:
For instance I got a efan right and then I put on performance pullies. I will get more power combined cuase I got both of them than somone that has just one. Lets say you have the efan and someone else had pullies each of you get 5 from each, but I get 20 from both get it. The same goes with the ignition parts and the hypertech combined they get greater power. So everything combined is a butt kicking blazer
Its tough to understand your fragmented sentences.
When does 5 and 5 ever become 20?
Will someone help me gap my Bosch +4's?
< Message edited by 4lowlife -- 2/12/2006 5:42:20 PM >
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/12/2006 7:00:56 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14530
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: strongboy2005
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
Lets say you have the efan and someone else had pullies each of you get 5 from each, but I get 20 from both get it. The same goes with the ignition parts and the hypertech combined they get greater power.
I didn't know it actually worked like that...
That's because it doesn't work like that with the examples given. An efan only frees up the hp used by the stock mechanical fan. Underdrive pullies only free up the hp used by turning the accessories faster. They do not magnify, simply add. So if they each free up 5 hp, you'll net 10 hp. Now say with a cam that adds 15hp stock, when installed in an engine already having headers and a high flowing exhaust, it may net 20hp. Mods that take advantage of each other will make more hp than the separate mods will alone. Same goes for PCM tuning. With the properly tuned PCM, a cam, headers, and exhaust can make some phenomenal hp gains with no downsides.
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Kyle-
04 Rainier
My Restoration Projects
Please Do Not PM for Tech Help
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/12/2006 7:18:27 PM
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4lowlife
Posts: 1562
Joined: 12/29/2005
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I agree with Kyle. A hot camshaft, headers, a flashed PCM and running 91 octane will get any more horse power than these $300.00 HHP3 3HP any day. Go big or go home. <----my cousin says that when he snowboards.
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/12/2006 8:48:19 PM
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4lowlife
Posts: 1562
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Someone did at S10PLANET.com
V-6 Bolt on list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE LIST
Created by: Matt
These modifications are only the most common and reliable modifications. There are others out there, however.
All of the approximate horsepower gains are based on a 100% stock motor. Gains will be reduced when more modifications have been done to your engine (that means you simply can't add horsepower figures).
Prices are also approximate, and are based on what I have personally seen or been told about.
** in front of the modification indicates a possible increase in gas mileage.
Horsepower Gains
Substantial Gains (Greater than 50 hp): Typically very expensive and require good working knowledge of your engine and custom modification and involved hands on work.
Supercharger................System Dependent Hp......................System Dependent Cost
Turbocharger................System Dependent Hp......................System Dependent Cost
Engine Swap................Engine Dependent Hp.......................Engine Dependent Cost
Nitrous.........................35-75 hp w/Stock Internals; 100 hp+ w/aftermarket internals $500-$2000+
New Intake...................Would have to be a custom fabricated unit
Very Good Gains (15-50 hp): Typically same requirements as the Substantial Gains category, and are typically done in preparation for a Substantial Gain Modification or just by themselves.
Custom Computer Programming (if applicable)......
Program and Engine Dependent hp...............................15-30 hp......$250-$600
Head Work (Pocket porting)/Valve Job/Larger Valves....
(all usually done at the same time)................................15-30 hp......$15-$500
Cam............................................... ............................20-30 hp......$100-$300
Bore and Stroke................................
Pistons........................................... ..
Crankshaft.......................................
Good Gains (5-15 hp): This is your typical 'Bolt-on' list where jobs can be completed in an afternoon or weekend. A good deal of these modifications are walked through on the S-10 Planet Tech section.
**Exhaust Headers........................................... ......................10-15 hp.........$300-$550
**Intake Tract- K&N Gen. II, Custom or similar...........................5-10 hp...........$50-$250
Aftermarket Pulleys........................................... ......................3-19 hp...........$65-$225
Computer Modules (Jet Stage 1 or 2, ADS, etc- 96+ years)........5-13 hp...........$200-$350
Computer Chips (pre-96)............................................... ...........5-18 hp..........$100-$200
Computer Programmer Units (Hypertech, etc- 96-99)..................5-12 hp..........$300-$400
**Exhuast Cat-Back System (or just aftermarket muffler).............5-10 hp..........$50-$500
**E-fan (instead of clutch fan).............................................. ......5-10 hp..........$100-$250
Diffuser Removal (throttle blade butterfly)(96+ years)...................5-7 hp............FREE
EGR Limiter (Plate for pre-96, S-10 Planet Adapter for 96+).........5-7 hp........... $10-$40
**Vararam VR Velocity Stack (96-04).........................................5-7 hp...........$30
**Exhuast Y-pipe (Shop built or SLP).........................................5-7 hp............$150-$250
1.5, 1.52, or 1.6 Roller Tipped Rocker Arms................................2-8 hp...........$50-$200
1.5, 1.52, or 1.6 Full Roller Rocker Arms....................................5-12 hp..........$200-$900
**Throttle body spacer ONLY for TBI or Carbed Engines...............5-9 hp............$25-$125
Venom Computer System (works at part throttle only)..................7-10 hp..........$250-$350
Fuel Pressure Regulator (helps mainly
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Pullies and efan - 2/12/2006 11:39:17 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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I have to disagree of what kile disagrees with. FIrst of all it was a example not an actuall projected gain in horsepower. Its common sense to see what I am saying is true. The pullies are turning the Fan clutch and everything else right? Then you get performance pullies and you get less dragg and get hp form them. Now you get a efan and the pullies will get even more power becuase there is no drag from the fan clutch. This is common sense. You will get more power with both of them than just one. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to realize this but if you disagree than disaggree but I am right period. Think about it really hard it will come to you. lol
< Message edited by ivannj -- 2/12/2006 11:48:51 PM >
_____________________________
97 Blazer LS 4wd 4.3l 2dr 71,000 miles
E-fan, Low Drag Pullies, Intake, Gibson Exhuast, B&M Deep Tranny Pan, B&M Shift Plus, Hypertech Tuner, TB Spacer
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RE: Pullies and efan - 2/12/2006 11:45:12 PM
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4lowlife
Posts: 1562
Joined: 12/29/2005
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I was thinking of installing underdrive pullies but my front wheelbearing/hub went again. The ruined one is only 11 months old. It'll be awhile before I install bolt on performance.
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 4:32:24 AM
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4lowlife
Posts: 1562
Joined: 12/29/2005
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1) I did not type this type this nor condone it.
2)My impala has a resonator, It takes the droning noise away. Ever here a V6 with a bad exhaust?I think blazing sadle once said
they sound ratty. It's annoying.
3)There is an old thread somehere archived on the purpose of it. I think Kyle wrote it up. Keeps rodents out. <---kidding It gives
IAT sensor a better reading I suppose. Hope that answer your questions. 
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 5:18:25 AM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14530
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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The MAF screens purpose is to smooth out the air flow so the MAF sensor gets the correct average reading. If the air flow through the sensor isn't uniform, it won't read correctly and you may have a lean condition. Lean conditions are bad. The removal of the screen is supposedly to allow more air flow, but if you look at the design of the MAF sensor housing, you'll notice that it is wide, then necks down. The screen is fine enough that it isn't restricting anything. In fact, there is more restriction in the throat of the MAF sensor than there is at the screen area. So it really doesn't matter whether it's in or out.
I have taken off the throttle blade deflector and although it has livened up the throttle response, I don't think it did a darn thing for WOT. As soon as the whether clears up, I'll be heading out to the junk yard and pulling another throttle plate (had to dremel mine) and I'll see how things go with the original back on. I have heard that the deflector isn't there to restrict air flow, but to make an engineered imbalance in the intake to draw the EGR gasses to the rear most cylinders. It makes sense and if that is the case, I could be running rich on my front cylinders while running lean on my rear cylinders.
And Ivannj, you can disagree with me night and day. I could give a crap. You really haven't freed up much of anything over what the 2 can do independant. You've only shifted the load to the alternator whenever the efan is called for. And then it will still draw down the same amount. True, the efan is more efficient being that it only has to come on when programmed to come on, but it is less efficient in terms of the power required when on due to the conversion from mechanical energy to electrical and back again (the whole power turned into heat thing). But alas, that's an entirely different topic.
Oh, one last thing. ITS SPELLED KYLE!!!
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Kyle-
04 Rainier
My Restoration Projects
Please Do Not PM for Tech Help
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RE: Pullies and efan - 2/13/2006 5:29:32 AM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14530
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
I have to disagree of what kile disagrees with. FIrst of all it was a example not an actuall projected gain in horsepower.
What is the sense in making an example of something if it didn't have a projected gain? Right there you invalidate the rest of your post...
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
Its common sense to see what I am saying is true. The pullies are turning the Fan clutch and everything else right? Then you get performance pullies and you get less dragg and get hp form them. Now you get a efan and the pullies will get even more power becuase there is no drag from the fan clutch. This is common sense. You will get more power with both of them than just one.
You are missing the fundamental operation of the fan clutch. It works much the same way as your efan does. The fan clutch was put in because at low temperatures, the fan barely moves and barely draws any power. Go out and spin your fan on a cold morning (oops, you don't have one anymore). When cold, the fan clutch should allow it to spin relatively free. When the clutch senses heat, it starts to stiffen up and causes the fan to spin at waterpump rpm, again, only when it senses heat. Once the heat has dissipated, it loosens back up, reducing the drag on the engine. Now pulleys alone may alleviate some of this drag when the clutch is engaged, but it won't be measurable in any stretch of the imagination.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
You do not have to be a rocket scientist to realize this but if you disagree than disaggree but I am right period. Think about it really hard it will come to you. lol
"I'm right period." LOL That's a good one. In theory, you may be correct, but as I have already stated, the gains would be so miniscule that nothing in the world today would be able to repeatably measure them. In my mind, that makes any gains so inconsequential that they are non-existent.
_____________________________
Kyle-
04 Rainier
My Restoration Projects
Please Do Not PM for Tech Help
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 3:06:15 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
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Sorry if I misspelled your name Kyle I am a bad speller and not that good of a typer either. I would like to know what do you mean quote:
"I'm right period." LOL That's a good one. In theory, you may be correct, but as I have already stated, the gains would be so miniscule that nothing in the world today would be able to repeatably measure them. In my mind, that makes any gains so inconsequential that they are non-existent.
How much do you think I have gained I love to hear this one.
_____________________________
97 Blazer LS 4wd 4.3l 2dr 71,000 miles
E-fan, Low Drag Pullies, Intake, Gibson Exhuast, B&M Deep Tranny Pan, B&M Shift Plus, Hypertech Tuner, TB Spacer
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 4:50:00 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14530
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
How much do you think I have gained I love to hear this one.
I think you'd be hard pressed to think that the additional 'gain' would be more than a tenth or two of a hp and good luck finding a dyno anywhere that is that sensitive. I am speaking of the additional gain from having the efan and the underdrive pullies. You obviously think you know better, so what do you think it is? Shock and awe us with your superior knowledge.
By the time you factor in that you alt is working harder when the efan is requested and that the mechanical (well actually fluid coupling) clutch is releasing the fan until it is necessary, the additional gain is a wash. And by 'wash' I mean that it is immeasureable.
IIRC, when you turn the alt slower, it really doesn't do all that much. With the internal voltage regulator, it will still draw as much power as it needs to regulate at 14.5volts, if it has insufficient rpm to sustain that, then you'll dip below, but so long as it has enough rpm, it will draw only what crank power it needs to sustain that voltage. This is probably anything over 500rpm with stock pullies and mostlikely 600-700rpm with the "power" pullies with a moderate voltage load. I can't remember all that clearly the inner workings of a modern alternator so this could be alittle off.
So if the above paragraph is correct, your real gains are in turning the waterpump, powersteering pump, and A/C compressor slower even though the A/C clutch is disengaged at WOT. You are slowing down the WP, PS pump, and A/C comp to free up some of the power they soak up. That is the benefit of the pullies.
By slowing down the WP, you slow down the fan. With the fan clutch though, it only draws power when the temperature behind the radiator reaches a certain level. I'll say it again for you. At this temperature, it couples up and spins with the WP. I will say that by slowing down the WP, you are slowing down the fan (stock fan) and may be picking up some power oh-so-slightly when engaged (over stock pullies), but this is at the expense of keeping it on longer. This ofcourse does not apply when using the eFan.
Power isn't free and I doubt that the conversion from mechanical to electrical and back again is more efficient than the straight up thermal clutch driven mechanical fan. Now if this were a straight coupled fan, I would agree with you, but it is not. Now cut that up however you see fit.
Oh and I snapped a quick video of me spinning my fan on my truck with just 5 minutes worth of cooling off time. It'll almost get 1 full revolution before stopping with the little bit of force I'm giving it. That just goes to show you how little power it really takes to turn the fan when it's internal thermostat is not up to temperature. I'll post it up if anyone wants to see it. Those of you with stock fans can go out and try it.
< Message edited by swartlkk -- 2/13/2006 5:04:49 PM >
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Kyle-
04 Rainier
My Restoration Projects
Please Do Not PM for Tech Help
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 6:14:57 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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I say I have gotten the least is 10 hp with both. I beleive that I have gotten more but lets leave it @ 10 hp. THe funny thing is your saying I gotten like maybe 1 correct me if I am wrong. Kyle stop smoking crack buddy.
_____________________________
97 Blazer LS 4wd 4.3l 2dr 71,000 miles
E-fan, Low Drag Pullies, Intake, Gibson Exhuast, B&M Deep Tranny Pan, B&M Shift Plus, Hypertech Tuner, TB Spacer
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 9:20:29 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14530
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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I am saying that there is NO additional, measurable gain from running both efan & underdrive pullies. So yes:
pullies @ 7hp + efan @ 3hp = 10hp
NOT
pullies @ 7hp + efan @ 3hp combined = 12hp or something like that.
Ivannj, you really need to read AND understand what I am saying before critisizing it. You may very well have freed up 10hp by running your accessories slower and running an efan. I definitely think the pullies are the majority of that 10hp though.
_____________________________
Kyle-
04 Rainier
My Restoration Projects
Please Do Not PM for Tech Help
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RE: Projected Gains - 2/13/2006 9:57:46 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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There has to be a benefit for haveing both. The good thing is I can put the clutch fan back on really easy and see but right now it is too cold to mess around outside but I am willing to bet you get more power having both like I said before. It makes sense Kyle. Well what do you think with the accel ignition and the programmer don't you think together you might get a little more power too? Well I think so but like to hear what you have to say. Make a diagram for the pullies and efan to see it better. The pullies not having the drag of the fan will free up more horses than it would with it right? Well we will find out when it gets hotter out!
_____________________________
97 Blazer LS 4wd 4.3l 2dr 71,000 miles
E-fan, Low Drag Pullies, Intake, Gibson Exhuast, B&M Deep Tranny Pan, B&M Shift Plus, Hypertech Tuner, TB Spacer
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