prevolts?
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RE: prevolts? - 2/10/2006 10:11:20 PM
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FatRyan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blazinloud
is the prevolt on a deck really that important? im lookin at the new alpine cda-9856 and its only at 2v outs, any input on this deck? what exactly are the advantages or disadvantages to a higher preout? should i look for somthin in the 3v-5v range?
thanks
Adam
the pre out voltage is mainly considered in SQ applications. if your just going for SPL, then dont waste the money on higher V preouts. Mine are 8v, and my deck sounds very nice. but theres many many many other factors for SQ. the pre out V is just 1 of them. ive had 2v and 4v also, and i really didnt see any difference at all. the only differnce i saw was from my cda-9855 (4v) to my current cd-8445 (8v), but this 8445 has alot better features than the 9855 such as a 24 bit DAC as compared to 1bit DAC
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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RE: prevolts? - 2/13/2006 4:56:58 PM
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blazingsadle
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The problem with automotive soound is that there is a failure of its clients, customers, to completely understand how output and input impedance matching works. long ago understood by real sound guys and also by real automotive audio installers, there are so many more folks doing their own automotive sound and video no that those that do understand are in a huge MINORITY.
Not calling names here, just a factual comment.
The output from one unit only needs to be efficient enough to work properly with the input of the next product in line. Odds are that the output has a CONTROL on it and just as good are the odd that the INPUT has a control also. Were it not for lack of customer knowledge and understanding and the fact that a UNIFIED and single standard is not in use, we wouldnt even need them. ( VERY THEORETICAL OF COURSE)
Instead we have controls on both ends and we simply adjust them to "sound good". The higher the output the unit may be capable of, the more restrictive a following unit it may be able to push/drive to maximum capacity. If the following unit (INPUT) is overly sensitive, however, then we will distort the input stage of that unit very easily, making for some major problems.
In other words, there is only a "percieved" advantage. Louder is easier, because distortion is easier to accomplish???? There may be one more reason, driving a larger than normal number of amps, for instance, thus having to "split" available output. This is about the only "good" reason for looking for a higher number.
What has happened is that some manufacturers have found it great to advertise their numbers. Guess some folks just buy higher numbers no matter what.
What the customers need to do is think about a "system" and "matching" properly. Often the simplest way to do this is to stay with just one manufacturer and get their advice once you already have one of their units and wish to expand. Write them an e-mail or call them and get their opinion. Distortion should not happen in the listening system. Its better to place it in the recording to begin with. Do it on purpose, not by accident.
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RE: prevolts? - 2/13/2006 5:18:59 PM
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FatRyan
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a good hypothesis, but it has no real basis. It is proven that higher V/lower impedance signals will deliver better quality sound. If it were just a sales gimmick that the n00bs fall for, then why do many professionals who compete use signal boosters to achieve higher V input signals? The higher the input V, the less you have to increase the sensitivity, resulting in less chance of audible distortion. However, you are correct in the fact that most car audio consumers do not have the slightest clue how to set gains. If you properly set your gains so that you do not clip the signal, there will be no excessive heat to damage the drivers.
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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RE: prevolts? - 2/13/2006 10:17:08 PM
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catalin
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Here's the best advantage and maybe the only one.
The higher the voltage fed into the amp, the less it has to work to 'amplify', meaning less heat and greater efficiency. So yes a higher voltage pre-amp is better for quality AND SPL systems.
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RE: prevolts? - 2/14/2006 3:16:49 AM
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djbass_mekanik
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higher voltage better for any type of setup.. i went from a 4 volt alpine to a 8 volt eclipse... big diff... amps' gains lower= gets cleaner signal= very lo chance of distortion...
* i wont go back to less than 8 volt, except if i go w/ navigation.. max is 5 volts...still good enuff
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RE: prevolts? - 2/14/2006 11:30:49 AM
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blazinloud
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yaaaa, im no where near the knowledge of u guys, thats why i thought i would ask. I dont belive im a "noob" in terms of car audio, however I am confident with my somewhat halfway there knowledge.
Anywho, i will eventually be running 1 mono and 1 4 channel amp equalling a little under 1000rms, nothing too insane. I've been looking at the new 06 Alpine cda-9856, not top of the line but i wanna keep the whole system alpine. for retail $300 it only has 2v preouts, so my understanding is that each amp would get 1v, correct? which is allowing the possiblity of more distortion. should I look into a 4v deck? eventually i would'nt mind competeing in spl drags. (and watch my alpine's get eatin alive)
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RE: prevolts? - 2/14/2006 2:11:34 PM
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FatRyan
Posts: 711
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blazinloud
yaaaa, im no where near the knowledge of u guys, thats why i thought i would ask. I dont belive im a "noob" in terms of car audio, however I am confident with my somewhat halfway there knowledge.
Anywho, i will eventually be running 1 mono and 1 4 channel amp equalling a little under 1000rms, nothing too insane. I've been looking at the new 06 Alpine cda-9856, not top of the line but i wanna keep the whole system alpine. for retail $300 it only has 2v preouts, so my understanding is that each amp would get 1v, correct? which is allowing the possiblity of more distortion. should I look into a 4v deck? eventually i would'nt mind competeing in spl drags. (and watch my alpine's get eatin alive)
i dunno about the others, but i wasnt calling any1 in particular a n00b  . but anyways, i dont know anything about the 9856. ive been out of car audio since i left for school, so i havent really seen any new stuff. But if its anything like the 9855, dont get it. Alpines quality has really declined in the last couple years. I do understand wanting a complete system by the same company. If your actually going for SQ or SPL, then chances are thats a bad idea, but for some reason i think im OCD about things like that, lol. your preouts are 2v. that means each single preout (Front left, Fornt right, Rear left, Rear right, Sub left, Sub right) will have a 2v signal at, or close to, max volume with a 0dB tone. It doesnt really put out 2v at all times. same goes for all preouts, be them 8v, 5v, 4v, etc. but theoretically, you sub amp should see 2 2v signals, and your component amp should see 4 2v signals.
and i dont know about the others here, but i never heard anything about higher V signals boosting efficiency. You got any info i could read on that? not saying your wrong, its just news to my ears...
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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RE: prevolts? - 2/14/2006 9:36:30 PM
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blazingsadle
Posts: 237
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FatRyan
It was a fantastic hypothesis 50 years ago, and the theory hasnt changed. What the listener is willing to accept as "sound", certainly has. Clarity, legibility and something resembling actual music reproduction of the original is so far from the void of todays automotive sound that there is no comparison.
Take a trail run; all of you. Go out and adjust your sound system as well as it can possibly play. The go buy a disc of the most classical opera and orchestra music you can find. Stick it on in there and see what you get. The result is that you have created sound the way YOU wish to hear it. Not the way any sort of standard ever intended it to be.
The real trick is to design a system that will accurately reproduce what the artist intended, wether it be the Boston pops or M&M. You should be able to plug in EITHER into your system and hear what you are SUPPOSED to hear. Hear what the ARTISTS studio recorded, not what you think it OUGHT to sound like. If you dont like the sound the studio built for the artist, buy a different artists work. Maybe the other studio will change their style??
I realize this is not what it is you folks are even discussing, but then again, thats exactly what is wrong with auto sound. Home theatre is another prime example.
Just an opinion, not meant to agrevate anyone.
I thought I would edit this to add something. Higher voltages are real handy when dealing with stages (live concerts) from 200 to further away (overcoming high resistances) or cable runs with tiny skinny unbalanced rca cords running way too far to an amp in the back of a car. I feel it better to use quality cabling and such to improve things, at least in an automotive situation this is not that hard to do. ( Higher voltages will melt the tiny wires anyway) Those stages, well....they use the best to begin with, right?
< Message edited by blazingsadle -- 2/14/2006 9:47:29 PM >
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RE: prevolts? - 2/14/2006 11:27:09 PM
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FatRyan
Posts: 711
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Southampton, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blazingsadle
FatRyan
It was a fantastic hypothesis 50 years ago, and the theory hasnt changed. What the listener is willing to accept as "sound", certainly has. Clarity, legibility and something resembling actual music reproduction of the original is so far from the void of todays automotive sound that there is no comparison.
Take a trail run; all of you. Go out and adjust your sound system as well as it can possibly play. The go buy a disc of the most classical opera and orchestra music you can find. Stick it on in there and see what you get. The result is that you have created sound the way YOU wish to hear it. Not the way any sort of standard ever intended it to be.
The real trick is to design a system that will accurately reproduce what the artist intended, wether it be the Boston pops or M&M. You should be able to plug in EITHER into your system and hear what you are SUPPOSED to hear. Hear what the ARTISTS studio recorded, not what you think it OUGHT to sound like. If you dont like the sound the studio built for the artist, buy a different artists work. Maybe the other studio will change their style??
I realize this is not what it is you folks are even discussing, but then again, thats exactly what is wrong with auto sound. Home theatre is another prime example.
Just an opinion, not meant to agrevate anyone.
I thought I would edit this to add something. Higher voltages are real handy when dealing with stages (live concerts) from 200 to further away (overcoming high resistances) or cable runs with tiny skinny unbalanced rca cords running way too far to an amp in the back of a car. I feel it better to use quality cabling and such to improve things, at least in an automotive situation this is not that hard to do. ( Higher voltages will melt the tiny wires anyway) Those stages, well....they use the best to begin with, right?
im not trying to start a fight man, but you havent backed any of your arguements with proof. And you need to do so because I and the others dont believe your argument. I know that a higher V lower resistance signal will have less chance of distortion at the amplification stage. Therefore, higher voltage signals are prefered for accurate sound reproduction. and Sound Quality is essentially accurate sound reproduction. The theoretical goal is to reproduce the "exact" sound that was intended to be heard, but that is never the actual case in sound systems. Basically the procedure is, accurately reproduce the sound, then tweak it to your liking. for example, some people like a boost in highes (like me) and some people like there highs toned down so the bass seems louder. How many people do you know that "like" the exact sound reproduced by any/every musician? and the consumer should always use the best wires and the shortest amount possible. thats a given.
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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RE: prevolts? - 2/15/2006 2:19:00 AM
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catalin
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Sound is objective, what sounds good to me will sound like crap to others and vice-versa. You could continue debating this till the end of time, you're not going to get anywhere with it nor find anykind of proof anywhere.
Just my two cents that were'nt called for. :)
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RE: prevolts? - 2/15/2006 2:32:03 AM
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FatRyan
Posts: 711
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Southampton, PA
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well SQ in definition is accuracy of reproduction. So that is subjective. But when using the term SQ in a less technicall/more applicable sense, it truely is subjective.
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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RE: prevolts? - 2/15/2006 1:51:03 PM
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blazingsadle
Posts: 237
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So now, rather than only stealing the reocording, we are also deciding how to listen to it so we like it best, right? I agree thats exactly what is happening, but what does this have to do with any classical notion of purity, accuracy or faithfull reproduction of sound?
You would probably all agree that there is no longer a standard that simply judges anything by its ability to faithfully reproduce the way the original sound was intented by the artist and his recording studio. How much credit is given to what the studio and artists work on, fight about and finally create? Does it even matter when all we worry about is how "we can create the sound WE wish to hear"?
Can any of you turn on your home theatre and simply watch any program you wish on the set and still get a FAITHFUL reproduction. Switch from Fox news to a modern digitally recorded movie featuring you favorite rap artists in the background? I dont mean reach for evry knob in the world, I mean just change channels. The way some folks have to "run" sound in their car, it gets hard to drive. Make sure you have an automatic and a remote or you'll never make it down the road?
As apperently missed somewhere, the amont of prevolt needed is dependent on THE NEXT STAGE. If its a good match, then it will work fine. The internal workings of a microphone may well be a good starting point. What would be the actual voltage created by the movement of the diaphram? Very small, right? So its the next stage that accepts this and couples it properly to be amplified some more.
All arguments about what is better based on only ONE END of the equation are completely useless and have absolutely no basis in scientific, electrical, digital, mathematical, or acoustic facts. Sorta like surfing with no wave, aint it??
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RE: prevolts? - 2/15/2006 3:09:13 PM
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FatRyan
Posts: 711
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Southampton, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blazingsadle
So now, rather than only stealing the reocording, we are also deciding how to listen to it so we like it best, right? I agree thats exactly what is happening, but what does this have to do with any classical notion of purity, accuracy or faithfull reproduction of sound?
You would probably all agree that there is no longer a standard that simply judges anything by its ability to faithfully reproduce the way the original sound was intented by the artist and his recording studio. How much credit is given to what the studio and artists work on, fight about and finally create? Does it even matter when all we worry about is how "we can create the sound WE wish to hear"?
Can any of you turn on your home theatre and simply watch any program you wish on the set and still get a FAITHFUL reproduction. Switch from Fox news to a modern digitally recorded movie featuring you favorite rap artists in the background? I dont mean reach for evry knob in the world, I mean just change channels. The way some folks have to "run" sound in their car, it gets hard to drive. Make sure you have an automatic and a remote or you'll never make it down the road?
As apperently missed somewhere, the amont of prevolt needed is dependent on THE NEXT STAGE. If its a good match, then it will work fine. The internal workings of a microphone may well be a good starting point. What would be the actual voltage created by the movement of the diaphram? Very small, right? So its the next stage that accepts this and couples it properly to be amplified some more.
All arguments about what is better based on only ONE END of the equation are completely useless and have absolutely no basis in scientific, electrical, digital, mathematical, or acoustic facts. Sorta like surfing with no wave, aint it??
The error in your thinking is that all consumers should/should want to listen to their music exactly as it was intended to be listened to...to respect the artist. Thats just not the reality. Car audio consumers, along with all audio consumers, dont spend hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands of dollars on equipment so they can listen to their music how it was intended rather than how they like. It not about the artists, its about the consumer, the car audio enthusiast. If they decide they like the music as it was intended to be heard, then so be it. But that doesnt mean everyone should listen to it that way. I dont like the way most music i listen to was recorded. If i was the artist or producer, Id change it. But im not; however, i have the ability to change it myself in my car.
saying that the preamp voltage needed is amplification dependent is true to a small degree. If you were to have 2V preouts running to an amp that needs to put out 4V (sqrt(18watts RMS x 1ohm...unrealistic, but whatever)), then 2V preouts would work great, and 8V preouts would be a little excessive and might potentially even fry the amp. But nobody runs such low wattages from auxilary amplification. I for example am running about 1800watts RMS at 1 ohm from my Merlin MD2. So thats about 42.4V that my amp needs to put out. Now which would be better, starting at 2V and matching the sensitvity (large slope), or starting at 8V and matching the sensitivity (not so large slope). The larger the slope of the sensitivity, the more chance that audible distortion will occur. and for those who use preamp V booster (16V for example), thats 16V to 42.2V, an even smaller slope. whats the other end of the equation? cause from my perspective, this is it. there is only 1 right and many wrongs. I can only speak for car audio applications. although most of my knowledge should carry over to any audio application, i just cant speak for that.
_____________________________
Deck: Pioneer DEH-P9800BT
Front: MB Quart pce-216
Rear: MB Quart pce-216
Comp amp: Orion 500.4
Sub: 2 Kicker S12L7's
Sub amp: USAmps Merlin MD2
Sub box: 2.5cubes net @ 38Hz /chamber
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