RE: Transmission Surge
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/26/2007 6:08:36 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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More updates...
Just to recap a bit...I recently brought the truck to another mechanic thinking I might be able to purchase some imperical knowledge. No such luck. But, he was able to tell me that cylinder 5 was more frequently misfiring than the others. With my scan tool, I was able to pick up P0304 and P1345 (Cylinder 4 misfire, and camshaft / crankshaft sensor correlation error). P0304 has shown up recently.
Last night I had a couple hours to spend in the garage.
So, the first thing I did was to pull plugs 4 and 5. They were both badly fouled, and smelled strongly of unburned fuel. Because some said the 4.3 is picky about plugs, and to help eliminate variables, I did replace all the plugs with the OEM ACDelco plugs (gapped to .060" - out of haynes manual).
I checked over the plug wires again, making sure that each wire was seated properly at the distributor and at the plug. I also checked again for any visable or audible arcing. Everything there checked out just fine.
I checked the rotor to see if it had been burned again. It was not. All looked good there. I also checked to be sure that the camshaft sensor was securely fastened. All looked good there.
I had read, in another post, that the ignition module can exhibit degraded performance if it gets too warm. So, I cleaned the module, heat sink, and mounting plate, applied fresh heat transfer compound and reinstalled the module.
This is ALL I did...and things are MUCH worse now. I can't say for 100% sure that this is due to changing plugs, or cleaning the heat sink...or whatever. But, I drove the truck Saturday and it ran like crap. I worked on the truck Sunday, then took it for a test drive, and it ran like crap x 10.
It still starts and idles just fine, save rough idle...but it's always done that. But, now I have a hell of a time getting going. From a stop I spit and sputter and buck until I can get above 1800-2000 rpm.
Some other details that may or may not be important...
During the summer I tried a bottle of Chevron engine treatment. I tried this right after doing the list of things I originally posted with. This was the only time during this diagnostic journey that I saw improved performance, rather than degrading performance. But, because I did so many things at once, it's hard to tell which things were successful contributors to the improvement.
I mention this because I read elsewhere that combustion chamber deposits can create the types of symptoms I'm seeing. Thinking back, I wonder if I saw some improved performance because, albeit for a short time, I was able to get rid of some of the build up.
I also noticed, during last nights efforts, that I was low on coolant. As long as I've owned the truck I have had a moist spot at the front right "corner" of the intake manifold. It's been my understanding that this is seen on alot of these vehicles. It has apparently progressed to a drip. I have never seen white, sweet smelling exhaust, and I have never seen evidence of burned coolant on the plugs. I have never seen coolant in my oil, or oil in my coolant.
I don't know how or why low coolant level, due to a leak, could contribute to anything I'm seeing. But, at this stage, I'm reluctant to skip over any detail.
I will be changing plug wires as soon as I can...mostly for lack of any better identified task.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/26/2007 7:54:27 AM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14472
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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It definitely sounds like something is wrong with those plug wires... When you pulled the wires off of the plug, did you make sure to pull by the boot and not the plug? It is possible that you stretched the wire and broke the conductor.
One other thing that I have seen numerous times is boots pushing themselves off of the distributor. When you install the wires, try to slip a small philips screw driver (the really small one) into the boot as you slide it over the terminal on the distributor. This will allow the air to escape. This is especially evident when dielectric grease is used in the boots as it adds to the seal.
If wires do not cure the problem, then I would take your coil and ICM (ignition control module) in to your local Autozone or Advanced Auto and have them tested.
_____________________________
Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/26/2007 11:02:05 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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Will do. Thanks!
I'll post back with findings.
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/28/2007 5:26:48 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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Quick update...
I did change the spark plug wires last night, following swartlkks advice about using a small screwdriver to get the boots on the distributor cap and prevent them from coming off.
During the swapout, I closely inspected the insulation and terminals of each wire for any sign of trouble. None was found. I found no evidence of wear of any kind, arcing from the insulation, or long sparks at the terminals (burn marks).
I had also remembered that when I cleaned up the ignition module and heatsink, I noticed the mounting screws were a little rusty. I didn't think anything of it at the time. But, I recognized later that those screws provide ground to the mounting plate. So, I removed the module and heatsink again, cleaned the screws and mounting holes, and reinstalled the module.
None of this helped at all. It's just as bad as it was during the last couple of days.
I'll bring the module and coil to have it tests ASAP. Do I have to have those out of the vehicle for Autozone to test them?
Thanks all.
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/28/2007 5:11:02 PM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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More...
I stopped and talked to the guys at the parts store about testing the ignition module and coil. They said that they could test the module, out of the vehicle, but not to bother with testing the coil. According to them, the simple resistive test they would do does not produce a reliable good / bad verdict. True or not...
I pulled the module and had it tested. It tested good...3 times in a row. So, I put it back on.
Out of curiosity, I asked how much the coil was...in hopes of eliminating any other "cheap' variables. Since the coil was only $40 ish...I replaced it.
Now, after replacing the coil, I'm back to running like crap x 1 (rather than crap x 10). I'm pretty much right back to where I was before I changed plugs back to OEM, performance-wise.
For what it's worth, I also tested the IAT sensor to make sure it was reading proper temperature (verified).
So, the coil seemingly made a difference. I'm not violently bucking anymore...but I'm still doing plenty of spitting and sputtering.
No new codes yet.
Now...that I can think of...there's a relatively small list of things left that could be wrong (ie:things I haven't already tested or replaced). There's the camshaft sensor (which most say is unlikely), there's the crankshaft sensor (which most say is unlikely), there's the timing chain (which most say is unlikely)...and then there's the distributor. Some have said that the gear on the distributor could be worn, causing the trouble.
I should mention, for completeness, that the distributor has never been removed during my ownership (to my knowlege). So, the idea that base timing could be off seems strange to me. Maybe I'm missing something and someone can explain how base timing can change without the distributor or timing chain moving.
I also got to thinking...what of the knock sensor. If I understand, the knock sensor detects a misfire and communicates it to the computer. The computer adjusts by advancing / retarding timing. But...what happens if the knock sensor is detecting misfires that aren't actually happening? Can the knock sensor throw timing off??
Dunno.
I've literally spent a year, and about $2000 on trying to get this thing to stop running like a complete piece of garbage. Granted, I'm not very smart...but those worth thier salt have trouble too.
For what I'm spending in wasted fuel and repair parts per month...add a hundred or two...and I could have a brand new car. Almost there. GRRR. :(
If it weren't for the fact that the people I work for only pay me if I continue to show up for work...I'd just drive it 'till it dies.
Please...any last ditched suggestions?
Thanks,
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/28/2007 5:58:53 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005
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Please verify that your plug wires are going to the right plugs. Some of the dist caps have the plugs numbered on top of the cap.
Do oyu have gas in your oil?
If so your fuel pressure regulator may be leaking, or you may have a leaking spider hose.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
-President Ronald Reagan
'87 S10-Blazer - SOLD
'93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done.
'00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/29/2007 4:46:21 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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Hanr3,
I agree misrouted plug wires are something to look for. When I replaced the wires I payed very careful attention to the cylinder numbering diagram, to the numbers on the distributor cap, and also verified that they matched. Last night when I replaced the coil, I checked them again. All is good there.
I'm certain I have gas in my oil, because I'm flooding the cylinders with unburned fuel all the time. The oil is due to be changed...that'd let me know for sure. The entire "multi-port spider assembly" was replaced less than a year ago. It contained a new FPR. This along with a new OEM fuel pump were a couple of the first things I did to try to eliminate rough running.
Before I changed the fuel pump and spider, I was seeing fuel pressure bleed off badly. If I put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail and cycled the pump, I got an initial 60 psi...but the pressure bled down to 40 psi (or less) in less than one minute. After replacing fuel pump...same. After replacing spider (with new FPR)...same. I gave up on that.
I've got lots to learn...but this misfire stuff seems like a spark issue to me. No?
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/2/2007 10:23:17 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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S10 Blazer...one year later, and I don't even know how much money (over $2k)...you win.
I spoke to someone at the local chevy dealship about my issues, siting all I'd done so far. Swag prognosis is that either the distributor or the computer needs to be replaced. I didn't even ask how much...because it really doesn;t matter at this point.
I'm spending almost $200 a month on parts to keep this thing going. I give up.
I want to thank you all for your support and helpfulness. I likely got a year more out of this vehicle, because of the availability of this knowledge base, than I would have otherwise.
I broke down and bought another vehicle yesterday...I really didn't want a car payment. But, in a way...I had one all this time.
I'll check back from time to time. Maybe I would have come across something someone is asking questions about.
Thanks again.
Icarus
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/4/2007 12:52:34 PM
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blzR
Posts: 138
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
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I SUre did/do appreciated you coming back with any updates you had!!
After over a year & $2000 of basically walking the same battleground as you, i too am hardly any better off. I am down to buying a new computer as a last option.The Blazer would have been a much better SUV had the name 'Gremlin' been afixed to it's exterior.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/7/2007 7:18:31 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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I don't know if I'd say all that.
I bought the vehicle in 2003 (3 years old). It was a good vehicle for me for the first few years. It really only got to be problematic during the last year or so. But, man...how.
In reality it was fairly trouble free (at leat during my ownership) during the first 6-7 years of it's life...which is pretty damn good. It's always been my belief that there was a reason why warantees and financing terms (for most auto manufacturers) hovered around 5 years. Every auto manufacturer has it's own reliability engineers, and these guys know the probability that a given widget is going to fail within a given amount of time. Of course, we don't want that to happen during warantee period.
So, in effect the coordinated failure of a bunch of stuff (around the 6-7 year mark) is completely by design...for most all vehicles. It is thier intended life span. To a significant degree, it's when a bunch of us cheap, or industrious do it yourselfers, or generally stubborn people try to fight these design characteristics that we get the feeling that the machine is a piece of crap.
There's an intellegent time to let a machine go, everything has a life cycle...and it's no ones fault but mine that I attempted to over extend that period, and was unsuccessful.
$.02
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/8/2007 2:05:02 AM
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blzR
Posts: 138
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
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us cheap, or industrious do it yourselfers, or generally stubborn people try to fight these design characteristics that we get the feeling that the machine is a piece of crap.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sad but true.
To bad i fall into the catagory of
previous owner-hand'me downs.
< Message edited by blzR -- 12/8/2007 2:23:16 AM >
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/8/2007 7:22:06 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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No disrespect intended. I was using those terms to describe myself, and to make the point that the vehicle really wasn't quite a piece of crap. That's all.
I was not the first owner of my own.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/8/2007 9:22:15 AM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005
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sometimes you need to bite the bullet and let the dealer service guys do thier thing. A good tech can find the problem, he may have to replace parts to rule them out. However he will get it fixed.
I took mine to my local GM delaer twice when I had a P0300 code. My problems were defective/subpar new parts. I am a strong believer in the GM tech, those guys are awesome. I only wish GM paid them hourly, plus a bonus for getting repairs done within labor rate time.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
-President Ronald Reagan
'87 S10-Blazer - SOLD
'93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done.
'00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/9/2007 4:25:45 PM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Central New York
Status: offline
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I agree, I should have just brought it to the dealer at the very beginning of this journey. I may not have saved much money. But, I likely would have saved a bunch of time and likely would have had the problem fixed.
Unfortunately, there were a bunch of other problems too...leaking intake gasket, problematic 4wd, cold weather starting issues, etc. So...even if I had gotten the P0300 jazz fixed, I would have had a bunch of other stuff in the hopper.
But, you're absolutely right. There's a time and a place for dealer service. I failed to recognize it in time.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/10/2007 9:36:15 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005
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No sweat, I do the same thing.
I exhaust all my options before I drag it into the dealer and ask them to take a look at it. I even call them a fe time sto bounce some things off the tech guys before I throw in the towel. Kind of a die hard do-it-yourselfer.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
-President Ronald Reagan
'87 S10-Blazer - SOLD
'93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done.
'00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/11/2007 12:10:17 AM
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N628AU
Posts: 4
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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The thread that never dies!!!
I am having almost identical issues. 96 2WD with the 4.3L Vortec, 172K on the engine and 186K on the vehicle total. I had to replace the engine with after the first one had a broken crankshaft at 112000 miles. Got a good salvage yard engine from a contact my mechanic had locally.
I have had no engine issues with it at all since then, and that was almost 4 years ago. Had it tuned about 24K ago. The air filter was replaced 8 weeks ago, and for the past 6 months I have put less that 800 miles a month on it.
Out of the blue I started getting what I thought was a drivetrain vibration or transmission surge right around 65 MPH. Then it also started while accelerating from a dead stop. It was only bad cold, it went away as the engine got warm. Both were intermittant issues but I noticed it more when it was wet, raining, or humid. It was more consistent at high speeds than low. I did not notice any issues at mid range speeds. Never had a Service Engine Soon light.
Took it to a local shop recommended by a family member since I am new to this area. He had it for a couple of days driving it before he could duplicate the issue. When he felt it, he went the same direction as me, and found both U joints bad, and replaced them. I thought I got off lucky fixing it for $150. I drove it for two days and the problem was gone.
Had not driven it since Thursday as I was out town. Started it today (kind of humid with some off and on showers). Ran like crap! Even at idle it was incredibly rough, which to me seems to rule out drivetrain and tranny issues. It runs better as you press the accelerator down further, than when you only press it a little. I am not sure I am going to hold on to it much longer, I love a lot about it, but when you are approaching 200K miles, you seem to just get deeper and deeper into spending money to fix it and I am not looking for something to become a money pit. I need something reliable, and since moving to Nashville we are looking for something with 4 wheel or all-wheel drive because neither my wife or myself have jobs where we can call out due to some snow on the ground.
I am taking it back to the mechanic on Wednesday to have him run some diagnostics on the engine and fuel systems, and I'll update with what I find.
Thanks for any help anyone can kick out!
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/14/2007 7:06:19 PM
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N628AU
Posts: 4
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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Update...
While on the road to the mechanic the Service Engine Soon Light illuminated. It is the dreaded code P0300. Found a bad plug and put all new plugs in (was just tuned with new plugs 30K ago), and it did not fix it. Found a bad ignition wire, and it did not fix it. All the cylinders have good compression. The mechanic says it looks like it may be running too rich? I'll have another update tomorrow afternoon.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/17/2007 12:45:24 AM
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N628AU
Posts: 4
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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New update...
Mechanic had it for three days. Found it not sparking hot enough. After two sets of plugs, he found the plugs were fine if he went up two heat ranges and got them to burn hot enough. Also replaced a bad ignition wire. This caused it be lean when cold, so he checked the fuel fileter and found it plugged up, so he replaced that and the lean issue disappeared. So far it seems to be okay, we'll see how it goes.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/17/2007 6:11:46 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005
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Sounds like your on the right track.
Plugs are a huge deal in these engines.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
-President Ronald Reagan
'87 S10-Blazer - SOLD
'93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done.
'00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 12/18/2007 11:00:04 AM
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N2BLAZIN
Posts: 27
Joined: 11/11/2007
Status: offline
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A lot of the ideas I've been reading about on here seem like very good ideas and possibilities but I had the same problem with my 98 4.3L VIN w 4x4. After months of diagnosising and scanning it with my computer I finally found that at about 45-55mph the Mass Air Flow sensor was fluctuating in Grams of air it was taking causing the engine to surge. The computer was trying to lean it out or make it rich but it was trying to do this quicker than the engine can actually handle it and therefore causing the surging. So, I ended up replacing my Mass Air Flow and the problem hasn't come back.
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sleeper til i die
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