Transmission Surge
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Transmission Surge - 3/14/2006 2:04:55 PM
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adelii
Posts: 4
Joined: 3/3/2006 Status: offline
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Hi, this is my first post. I have a ’95, 4x4, 4dr, automatic transmission, Blazer, with 138k miles. The problem I’m having is the following; When I’m cruising around 50-55, the trans lunges. The trans is shifting properly through all the gears from 1st to 4th, but it feels as if it wants to shift into OD but it doesn’t. The tach shows that the revs are fluctuating and the speedometer also fluctuates. If I place the shift selector on the “D” instead of the “OD” it doesn’t do the fluctuating. But the revs stay high and the fuel economy suffers greatly. The fuel pump assembly was replaced due to a rusted broken fitting. I’ve checked the fuel pressure, and it’s as is supposed to be, I have installed new spark plugs and wires, and have replaced the fuel filter (the old filter was clean) hoping to make this go away. The injector system was replaced about a year ago as it had a broken fuel injector hose. The trans fluid is at its proper level. I believe the problem is with the transmission. Is there a relay that controls the converter? If so, where is this relay located? Pictures of the location will help greatly. Is there a schematic of this electrical system? Can someone help by printing said schematic and showing it on this page? I have a 1999 automatic trans I took off a ‘99 Chevy SS S10 with 66k miles due to a broken shell. Will any of the parts of this transmission fit the 95 blazer trans? Any help from you guys is well needed. I’ve been reading this forum for quite a while and have searched for trans problems, and have read almost all the back posts searching to see if anyone has had this problem previously and no one has. At least I didn’t find any post that did. One came close to having the same problem and a relay controlling the converter was mentioned. This is why I’m curious about the relay. Thanks in advance and sorry for the lengthy post.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/14/2006 2:40:22 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14472
Joined: 5/1/2005 From: Waterloo, NY Status: offline
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This sounds like TCC shudder to me... There is a TC solenoid that controls the lockup of the TC... I'd have to do some digging to find more information than that... Let me see what I can find. Hopefully Hanr3 will jump in with some insight.
_____________________________
Kyle- 2004 Rainier 1970 Chevelle - Resto 1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/14/2006 4:02:01 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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Welcome to the site. Like swart said, could be just a slipping torque converter lock up. What controls it, your puter controls it. Granted the puter gets info from various sensors, like TPS, VSS, brake switch, temp sensor, and MAP sensor. None of which are attached to the tranny, except the VSS. Could it be a tranny problem, yep, however, lets make sure we rule out the engine first. Get your MAP sensor tested. Make sure your vacuum lines are not leaking. The torque converter will lock up once the computer gets the signal from the MAP sensor that the vacuum is just right. The acuum will change with engine rpms. A leak in the vacuum system will prevent the torque converter from locking up, or moving into and out of lock up. Even though you may not have a CEL (check engine light) on, go to autozone and have them check to see if any codes have been set. Make sure your tranny has the proper amount of tranny fluid in it. Check it with the engine running after 20 minutes of driving. Park on a flat surface, leave the engine running, and check both sides of the dipstick, wipe, and check again. Make sure your within spec on the dipstick. If not add as needed. If you see fluid on the dipstick but are low, add 1/2 bottle at a time and check it again. Drive it first. Make sure it goes through all gears. then stop and check. Do this as many times as it take to get the proper amount of tranny fluid in it. When was the last time you had the tranny fluid changed? How many miles? '97 and '00 4L60E tranny share many similar parts. All of the clutch packs will interchange, and most of the internal parts with a few exceptions. The exceptions are parts that must be matched sets, so if you change one of them you must change all of them. There is one noticable difference between the '97 and '00 trannies. The '97 has the bellhousing as part of the tranny case, while the '00 the bellhousing is seperate and removeable. The removeable bellhousing must be removed before you install the pump, otherwise you will ruin the pump rubber o-ring in the process. The last thing it could be is a worn out torque converter, although you don't mention any of the other signs for that. That is why I think your problem lies in the engine (a sensor) or low tranny fluid. Post up until we get this resolved.
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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/14/2006 4:10:44 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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One more thing. well two more things. Where I type '97, change that to '95. It still applies. Lastly, The tranny has 4 forward gears, 1, 2, 3, and 4th gear or commonly referred to as overdrive. 4th gear and ovverdrive are the same thing. Please don't confuse torque converter lock up with a gear. It is something completely different. The torque converter can lock up in 3rd and 4th gears, and on some of the newer trannies 2nd gear. Since you seem to be having the problems with it in 4th gear, I suspect a vacuum leak, MAP sensor, or TPS. If it was the torque converter lock up, it should do the same thing in 3rd gear. Do you have a tach? If not, do this. Get up to speed on an open road. Radio off, windows rolled up so you can hear the engine. You should hear it drop in rpms through each gear, and finally when the torque converter locks up. When you think you have torque converter lock up while in 4th gear, lightly tap the brakes. This will instantly unlock the torque converter and th engine rpms should go up a couple hundred rpms. You will see it on the tach, and you should be albe to hear it in the engine. Do this test as well, again up to speed on the open raod (no cars around you). Manuall shift through the gears, from 1st to 4th. Then back down again. Post up what you find out.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/16/2006 9:07:04 AM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelii Question, if the MAP sensor is bad, won’t it show as a fault in the codes? Also where is the VSS located? No, you may not get a fualt code with a dirty sensor. I think you need to clean your MAP sensor and replace your vacuum lines. The vacuum system is one system and runs to many places. The vacuum ball is only one of them, it also runs to your MAP sensor, and heat-a/c controls. Pull your MAP sensor out and clean it. I would also replace all the vacuum lines with new ones. Tranny fluid in the hoses will attract and hold any dirt that gets into the hoses (read you will fight this problem for a long time). The VSS is located on the tranny (2wdr) or t-case (4wdr). '87 and prior it is located on teh back of the speedometer, in the dash.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/16/2006 7:54:34 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelii Hola. Greetings. Today I did a couple of checks as you suggested. On my way to the tech I did the shifting through the gears both auto and manually. All shifts were good, at 4th, when I tapped the brake the rpm did go up. The surging happens at 50 –55 mph and the rpm fluctuate from 15k to 17k. The surging occurs when it’s in 4th. If I manually down shift to 3rd from 4th the surging goes away but the rpm stay high. The surging is more pronounced when going uphill or when under load. At the tech the readings from the sensors were negative. There was one historic code-misfire of 1st cylinder-, which is why I changed the spark plugs and the cables last weekend. Tomorrow I’m checking all the vacuum hoses for any leaks. I’ve done this in the past, when I replaced the 3 way vacuum valve at the transmission. I’ll do it again to make sure there are no leaks. Question ref the VSS, what does it look like, do you have a picture? Does it have 3 vacuum hoses connected to it? If it does this is what I replaced a couple of months ago. I will replace all the other vacuum hoses as soon as I can. For today this is all I have. Tomorrow I will remove the MAP and clean it out. I will keep you informed as I make any checks that will help in getting rid of this problem. OK what your discribing by the surging sounds like the torque converter is locking in and unlocking for some reason. Teh 200rpm jump indicates its unlocking. Could be as simple as a dirty MAP sensor, or it could be as bad as a failing torque converter. Clean it first and see how that goes. Since the surging is more pronounced uphill, or underload I suspect it is operating normally. When you give her more gas to climb the hill, or pull the load the torque converter should unlock, adn if you keep pushing the gas peddle it should downshift into 3rd gear. Give that a try and see if that happens. Now when your crusiing on flat ground and no load, does it surge? If this problem just started, as in it didn't used to happen, we need to look at other facotrs, ie air filter, spark plug gap, rotor etc. I found a pic that might help. Clcik here for pic In this pic the VSS is electronic. That means the reluctor and gear are located inside the t-case and the only thing coming from it is two wires. Look in the top of the pic, notice where the long output shaft of the t-case is? See the black wiring harness where hte long part connects to a smaller part which connects to teh main part of the t-case? (wish I could put an arrow on it for you) That harness is the VSS harness. Look on the bottom half of the pic, see the 3hose connector, and see the black wiring harness next to it. That black harness is for the push button shifting of this t-case.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/17/2006 7:27:39 PM
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adelii
Posts: 4
Joined: 3/3/2006 Status: offline
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Greetings. I checked out the MAP sensor and it wasn’t clogged up. It did have a little carbon around the little hole that goes into the manifold, but I looked into this orifice and could see that it was clean. When you said to clean the MAP this is the place that had to be cleaned, right? Another thing, while driving and going up hill with a load, if I step on the gas the trans does down shift into third and it stops surging. The surging occurs on flat ground as well. This problem did not start just recently it’s an on going thing. Which is making me crazy. I haven’t changed the vacuum hoses yet. Before I do I’m going to check all of them to make sure none are plugged or leaking, also I want to measure how many feet I’m going to need. I didn’t do this today as I was checking out the MAP. Also I was installing an updated sound system in the Blazer. Reference the picture for the VSS, I see the sensors, and appreciate you posting the picture. Thanks. Anyway, I’m beginning to believe that the problem lies with the vacuum. I’ve been looking for a schematic on how the vacuum hoses are supposed to go in the system and have not found any. I have a Chilton manual and it only shows the routing of the emission hoses. The vacuum problem is of course a suspicion on my part, but it’s about the only thing that needs to really be checked. Question, would any of the sensors on the engine cause this if they were malfunctioning? If so, which would be the culprit? If I’m too inquisitive I’m really sorry, but you seem to have a handle on the workings of this vehicle. And as I’ve read through the posts on the forum, you are the one that answers most of the questions having to do with problems of this vehicle. I don’t mean to place a burden on you and I really appreciate your patience and help. Thanks.
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RE: Transmission Surge - 3/17/2006 7:43:52 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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There should be a vacuum diagram in the engine compartment, unless it is too faded to read. I also think Autozones website has them. Look in the repair section. Swart might also be able to posst up a vacuum diagram for you. Your doing fine. I am about out of things to check though. I hope swart can jump in here and tell you more about the MAP sensor, like how to clean it, and how to test it. Post up what you find out on the hoses. You don't need to replace all of them, just the ones that are stiff, brittle, show signs of swelling or cracking. I know this is going to sound strange, and I am not entirely why it fixed the problem. However on my sons Ranger he was also having a surging problem, a surging problem just like yours. On his truck we found that if he runs at least 89 octane gas the surging problem goes away. Since we discovered that, he has been running 89 octane gas and has not had any more surging problems. His was doing the same as yours, exactly the same as yours. Give it a shot, run a couple tank fulls through and se what happens.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 10/1/2007 10:47:34 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Central New York Status: offline
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Hi all...time to resurect this one. 2000 4wd LS Blazer 120k miles Same issues here. So far, I've been chasing potential, ignition control, spark, and fuel issues. I have... - Changed the fuel pump - 1 year ago
- Changed the fuel filter - a few months ago
- Changed the fuel injector assembly (multiport spider including FPR) - a few months ago
- Inspected vacuum lines and replaced suspects - a few months ago
- Changed y-pipe, cat, and oxygen sensors (all OE OBDII certified) - a few months ago
- Changed MAF sensor - 1 year ago
- Changed spark plugs - last week
- Changed PVC valve - last week
- Changed cap and rotor - last week
- Cleaned MAF - last week
- Cleaned EGR valve and port - last week
- Changed air filter - last week
- Installed new muffler - last week
- verified proper trans fluid level - last week
- Verified proper running fuel pressure (on cycle and idle) - last week
Well...I'm getting better gas mileage all the time. But the surging is still present. I call it surging...not sure if someone else would. It could also be described as lagging. It feels like a boat towing a waterskier when the rope slack is taken up fully. There's a sharp jerk back and then a jerk forward. Anyway...that's about what I've got going on. I'm not sure that this is a torque converter issue, a fuel pump circuit issue, a fuel pressue issue...or something I haven't even thought about. Some other specifics (and reasons why those things come to mind)... It's worse when it rains. It's actually barely detectable during dry weather. It is most noticeable after some rain. I've gone down the spark path and the air path...which makes me think fuel. The fuel pump is relatively new, and cycle fuel pressure and no load idle fuel pressure check out, but I don't have a way to check running loaded fuel pressure without installing an additional gauge. I may do that he soon. My gas mileage has improved drastically with last weeks efforts. In fact, I'm getting about 20 MPG AVERAGE (verified over the last 961 miles). This is up from about 16 MPG average historically. 20 MPG is actually better than manufacturers advertised fuel economy, if I'm not mistaken. Which makes me wonder if I'm lean...back to fuel pressure. This current bout all started with a P0300 (multiple cylinder random misfire) code. I started with a cap and rotor...and have not seen the code again. But, i still have the surging issue...or lagging...whichever. I have no fuel leaks, vacuum leaks, or suspect lines that I can find. I have no pending, hard, or historical codes...other than the P0300. I have tried varying grades of gas, as well as fuel injector and fuel system treatments...and see no correlation between thier use and surging. I should also point out that, although I have had symptoms of misfiring and general `rough running` for about...ever...this surging and P0300 business didn't become prevalent until a couple of months ago. Basically, everything from changing spark plugs down (in my list of stuff done) was done in direct response to this surging issue. In other words, the issue didn't pop up after doing one of these things...or after doing anything in particular that I can identify. I see the MAP, TPS, and IAC sensors come up in conversation...but, I don't think I have all of them. I think I have an IAC and TPS sensor...but, I'm not sure where they are or how to go about testing them or cleaning them. Any input, guidance, other ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Icarus
< Message edited by Icarus76 -- 10/1/2007 11:07:37 AM >
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RE: Transmission Surge - 10/1/2007 11:49:54 AM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14472
Joined: 5/1/2005 From: Waterloo, NY Status: offline
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I had the surging/stumble that you describe with my old Bravada and never did find a source. I ran with the hood off and a fuel pressure gauge zip tied to the windsheild wiper for a few days. Had my scan tool attached recording every parameter I could to no avail. One thing I did notice is that the surging is MUCH less prevalent when the A/C was switched off. I could barely feel it. I just finally chalked it up to "one of those things" and moved on. It never impacted my fuel mileage that I could tell. Running with the A/C off never really did gain me any extra MPG...
_____________________________
Kyle- 2004 Rainier 1970 Chevelle - Resto 1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Transmission Surge - 10/1/2007 1:54:10 PM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Central New York Status: offline
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Hmm...thanks for the quick response. Not quite the prognosis I was hoping for...but maybe I can stand to chill a bit on it. How long did your run like that without breaking down...a long time? Are there some other quick checks / procedures that I could try? I can't imagine there's much left. If there are just a couple more things that I could do...I'd just as well do them...just to give it a fair chance of being knocked out. As another point of interest...I did check running fuel pressure again when I got home from work. It is running at about 52 - 53psi. If my memory serves me, it ran at about 59psi when I last checked it. It seems odd to me that I should see a 6-7 psi drop over such a short period. 7 psi (in my mind) is a substantial amount of fluid pressure....especially to be lost. Not sure if you remember...but, I've still got that weird condition where fuel pressure drops right off after cycling the pump. In other words, it doesn't hold...which is part of the reason for replacing the FI spider and FPR. But, that was no help. I've got an itch to drop the tank now. I've got a bad feeling that there's a bunch of crap in there that the guys who replaced the pump last didn't get rid of. Of course, crap in the tank wouldn't make fuel pressure bleed off. My hunch has been that the bleed off has been because of the pump. Maybe this new stuff is the incentive I need to have a look. Is it a big deal to drop the tank...hadn't been there...yet. Thanks, Icarus
< Message edited by Icarus76 -- 10/1/2007 6:13:23 PM >
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/19/2007 10:42:51 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Central New York Status: offline
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Just an update... The problem has gotten much worse. The vehicle is now barely drivable. It spits, sputters, and nearly dies every other second. I don't dare drive it more than a few miles at a time. I haven't done anything new, other than observe. I have not seen the P0300 code again, my gas milage is back down to miserable, and now I am seeing P1345 (camshaft and crankshaft out of sync). I'm willing to bet that I've already burned that new rotor I put in a couple of months ago. I started to look into problem symptoms, and replacement procedures for the camshaft and crankshaft sensors. I think the most likely problem, between these two sensors is the crankshaft...partly because it looks like a pain to replace. I also came across information that suggests that my problem may be a timing chain, or a worn distributor gear. Any thoughts, suggestions?
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/19/2007 8:04:15 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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sounds like your engine is out of time. get it timed and see what happens. typically your cam and crank sensors work or they dont. if they are saying they are out of sync, that sounds like your timing is off to me. maybe skipped a tooth on the timing chain.
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/19/2007 9:13:09 PM
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Chevy Lover
General Tech Moderator Posts: 3411
Joined: 6/11/2006 From: Vancouver. B.C. Canada Status: offline
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Don't know if this will help, but Check the following items: A loose CMP sensor causing a variance in the sensor signal. Excessive free play in the timing chain and gear assembly. Incorrectly installed distributor -- 1 tooth off in either advance or retard positions. A loose distributor rotor on the distributor shaft. A loose or missing distributor hold down bolt. An intermittent may be caused by any of the following conditions: A poor connection Rubbed through wire insulation A broken wire inside the insulation
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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he will sit on a boat drinking beer for a life time
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/20/2007 4:52:05 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Central New York Status: offline
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I've been told that the computer adjusts timing as necessary based on sensor signals. Is this not the case? If it is, I'm not sure how I would set the timing. I would think that even if I could, the computer would put it right back. I'd thought more about this last night, and identified a couple more things to do to eliminate some variables. When I went through the long list of "stuff done", I did not change plug wires because the wires I had were only a couple years old. But, I suppose those could be arcing (the problem is worse when it rains). I don't see them arcing in the dark, though. I figured I'd also change the camshaft sensor since it's cheap, quick, and easy to do so. If those don't cure it, when I have a bit more time, I'll pull the distributor to inspect the gear for wear. Some other details that might spark some imperical knowledge... The truck starts and idles OK, but runs like garbage under load almost all the time. ONCE IN A WHILE, when it's very dry, the truck will run OK for a little bit...but, as I said, it's much worse when it's wet. This makes me think plug wires, or electrical distribution to and from the sensors. I've also had a problem, in the past, starting the vehicle when it's below 30 degrees, and the vehicle has sat for more than one day. Don't know if these might be related or not. The forth mechanic to tell me that he's stumped (last night), told me that, under the P0300 code, cylinder 5 is the most frequent offender. He must have a fancier OBDII scanner than I do. I'm not quite sure how to utilize this information, except for that if it were a sensor issue (camshaft or crankshaft) I would expect the the misfire be truely random. The mechanic mentioned that cylinder 5 has misfired 5:1 on any other cylinder. The plugs are brand new, but I'll pull plug 5 to inspect. Stupid question, I know, but how do I identify plug 5? I think the distributor cap might be marked, but I'm not sure on that. ***Edit*** Found this on the forum: ------------ F|2---4---6|/--\ F|----------|DS| F|1---3---5|\--/ ------------ Probably would have been in my haynes manual too, duh. Thanks, Icarus
< Message edited by Icarus76 -- 11/20/2007 5:24:10 AM >
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/20/2007 1:14:30 PM
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blzR
Posts: 138
Joined: 2/8/2007 Status: offline
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PLEASE DO keep us posted on what s going on with this. My 95 is the same cloned problem as yours!
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/20/2007 6:19:17 PM
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Hanr3
Wheels & Tire Moderator Posts: 3479
Joined: 5/11/2005 Status: offline
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Ah more information. P0300 is a bitch to fix. Ask around and you will get the smae answer. To set timing you simple need to pull the distributor and put it back in correctly. Make sure #1 is at TDC (top dead center) and Haynes should get you on with the distributor ion most cases. Yes the puter controls timing, too some extent. However if your base timing is off, its off. Teh coputer adjusts timing for numerous contidtions, none of which are base timing. Spark plugs is a good canditdate, cap and rotor are too (especially if the problem gets worse in wet warther), and verify you have the correct gap on those plugs and they are AC Delco plugs. These engines are very picky about plugs, wires, and cap & rotor. They are highly tuned high performance engines, they require good parts, not cheap parts, not average parts, good parts. Like OEM or better parts. Ignition is the one area you cannot skimp on. Been there fought it for 3 months (P0300). Fixed it!!!!
_____________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." -President Ronald Reagan '87 S10-Blazer - SOLD '93 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - Sons DD, engine swap is done. '00 S10-Blazer 4x4x4 - My
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RE: Transmission Surge - 11/21/2007 5:27:24 AM
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Icarus76
Posts: 45
Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Central New York Status: offline
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Thanks Hanr3. I did use bosch platinum plugs (the 2 prong ones) when I changed plugs. These plugs do not require gapping. Some people told me not to do this because the engine is picky, and some people told me I would have no problems but that I would see an increase in gas mileage and power. Every auto shop lists these plugs as a viable replacement for this vehicle. I did initially see an increase in gas mileage and power, but now (obivously) I have troubles. The troubles, though, existed well before the spark plug change. In fact, this has been going on for a year now...slowly progressing. Granted, the progression is occuring more quickly since the plug change...but I'm not convinced that plugs are the issue. Don't get me wrong...I'm not ruling it out either. More recently, I've been told that the platinum plugs foul more easily...so that may be a contributor here. As soon as I can get a few quality hours in the garage, I'll be going through inspecting all of the things I mentioned. I will go back to normal, everyday, ACDelco plugs if I see evidence of plug problems. I may anyway...just to eliminate a variable. From a reporting aspect, it's difficult to distinuish what exactly is important and what is not. So, I'm sure as this goes more details will fall out. From time to time I get the feeling that most all the troubles I've had, and asked for assistance with on this forum, have been related to some degree. I may be wrong there. Something else that may be useful... When I changed the cap and rotor (about 2 months ago), the rotor was badly burned. With the new plugs and other TLC, I saw improved performance for a short time. Now, I'm obviously worse off than I was. I will be checking it soon, but based on how I'm running, I'd be willing to bet that the new rotor is burned. If it is, I imagine that would help isolate contributors. I imagine there is a relatively small subset of situations that would burn a new rotor up on short order. Thanks all for your attention and help. Icarus
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