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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/18/2007 3:35:55 PM   
swartlkk


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I just thought I'd bump this up again.  I just received an email from Gerard Gibbs law firm who is the prinicipal law firm working on this class action lawsuit that seems like is going no where.  Anyway have a read.

quote:


We are writing to update you on the status of the Dex-Cool litigation.  This email addresses the Multi-District Litigation (MDL) multi-state case pending in East St. Louis, Illinois.  It does not concern vehicles purchased in Missouri, California, or Texas, which are expressly excluded from the MDL case.  Additionally, this email concerns the 3.1L, 3.4L, 3.8L, and 4.3L engine platforms, which are at issue in the MDL case.   As we previously reported, plaintiffs in the MDL asked the Court to certify the following issues for resolution at trial:

1.
Whether the intake manifold gaskets in GM’s 3.1L, 3.4L and 3.8L engines (model years 1996- 2003) are incompatible with Dex-Cool engine coolant, causing the gaskets to fail prematurely; and
2.
Whether the engine cooling systems in GM’s 4.3L engine (model years 1996-2000) is incompatible with Dex-Cool engine coolant, causing excessive sludge in the engine’s cooling system.  

Unfortunately, the Court denied plaintiffs’ request to certify the class.  Among other things, the Court found that the differing state laws, including the requirement in some states that consumers seeking relief for breach of warranty prove “reliance” on the warranty at the time of purchase, and the possible difficulty of figuring out the cause of “sludge” on a class-wide basis, warrant against class certification.  It is important for you to understand that the Court’s decision denying class certification is not a decision on the merits of plaintiffs’ case.  Instead, it is a decision on whether it is procedurally appropriate for the case to proceed as a class action, as requested by plaintiffs.    We are in the process of determining whether to ask the Court to certify individual state classes on behalf of a more limited line of GM vehicles.  Because we have yet to decide on an appropriate course of action, if you are considering pursing a “gasket” or “sludge” claim against GM, such as in your local small claims court, you should not delay in doing so, as the passage of time may effect your rights.  If you have a vehicle with a 3.1L, 3.4L or 3.8L engine and have experienced a lower intake manifold gasket failure, and would like us to consider pursing a “gasket” class action limited to your state, please let us know and we will expedite the necessary research and let you know whether such an action is feasible under your state’s laws.  If you would like us to undertake such research, you may contact us at generalmotorsclassactionUS@girardgibbs.com.


< Message edited by swartlkk -- 9/18/2007 3:38:44 PM >


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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/18/2007 4:48:09 PM   
MindlessCorpse

 

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Dex-cool was in my Blazer when i bought it, but no longer. I went with the regular green Prestone. I hear Dex-cool may be a culprit in someway helping to cause intake manifold failure, but well who knows??

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/19/2007 10:11:37 PM   
TwistinChrome


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Well, the best way to handle dex-cool is to flush it out real good and refill with 50/50 mix of the green stuff.  No more leaky intakes, water pumps, t-stat housings, or plugged heater cores.  This may not apply everywhere, but my experience as a dealership tech in the middle of the desert says dex-cool is junk.

Go Green!

_____________________________

'89 S-10 Blazer 4x4-
poweraid spacer, guzzla lift, hack-back exhaust
'81 CJ-8 Scrambler-
offy intake, holley 460, full camaro ign system, daystar shackles, borla exhaust
'89 S-10 Blazer R.I.P.-
iroc rims, guzzla drop, air shocks, hack-back exha

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Post #: 103
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/20/2007 11:50:10 PM   
Taymacjack



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my girlfriend just got a 99 olds alero with 155k miles. Its been on dexcool for its whole life and runs great (Great mantainace), but im prob. gonna flush it out and go EG. Ive just heard from too many mechanics that dexcool is no good.

< Message edited by Taymacjack -- 9/21/2007 12:12:38 AM >


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Post #: 104
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/21/2007 3:56:28 AM   
swartlkk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistinChrome

Well, the best way to handle dex-cool is to flush it out real good and refill with 50/50 mix of the green stuff.  No more leaky intakes, water pumps, t-stat housings, or plugged heater cores.  This may not apply everywhere, but my experience as a dealership tech in the middle of the desert says dex-cool is junk.

Go Green!

While that may have been the suggested practice when dexcool first came out, many other GM sites that I am a part of are now experiencing intake manifold failures on GREEN COOLANT ONLY engines after full rebuilds.  Now, is it the coolant?  Or is it just bad intake manifold designs...?  As suggested in the email from the law firm above, it is poor intake gasket design and/or material choice that is causing all of the problems.


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Kyle-

2004 Rainier
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1974 K5 Blazer - Resto

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Post #: 105
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/21/2007 10:03:48 AM   
RCars2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistinChrome

Well, the best way to handle dex-cool is to flush it out real good and refill with 50/50 mix of the green stuff.  No more leaky intakes, water pumps, t-stat housings, or plugged heater cores.  This may not apply everywhere, but my experience as a dealership tech in the middle of the desert says dex-cool is junk.

Go Green!


Im in the middle of the desert (phoenix, az) and Dexcool works just peachy for me. Yes it finally broke down after over 100k miles but ive had the green stuff do that too. Basically my whole philosophy on coolant is this, so long as you take care of it and dont get a bunch of garbage in it, it should work no matter what color or brand. Yes certain brands like prestone have additives that do prolong life and that may be a plus but who knows, you may not nessesarily need that. Plus in light of this particular thread and other testing done by other third parties, most coolants perform right on par with one another in the same conditions. So just go with what ever speaks to you. Coolants main job is to keep your car temperature controlled over a prolonged period of time and ya know what, i dont think they would release coolants to the public if they didnt do just that (thus why you dont see apple juice as a coolant).


Now if you really want to know what i think, i say go pentosin, purely for the fact that stuff is blue, how cool is that, LOL.

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"what fell off of where!?!?!"



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Post #: 106
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/22/2007 1:04:15 AM   
TwistinChrome


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[/quote]
While that may have been the suggested practice when dexcool first came out, many other GM sites that I am a part of are now experiencing intake manifold failures on GREEN COOLANT ONLY engines after full rebuilds.  Now, is it the coolant?  Or is it just bad intake manifold designs...?  As suggested in the email from the law firm above, it is poor intake gasket design and/or material choice that is causing all of the problems.

[/quote]

I've personally resealed about 500+ GM intakes, maybe 5 had green coolant in them.  So it sounds to me like you have more website memberships than work experience...

All I'm saying is Dex-Cool is far more problematic than the green stuff.  Any dyed-in-the-wool GM guy or girl can agree with that.  Is that too much to state?   

_____________________________

'89 S-10 Blazer 4x4-
poweraid spacer, guzzla lift, hack-back exhaust
'81 CJ-8 Scrambler-
offy intake, holley 460, full camaro ign system, daystar shackles, borla exhaust
'89 S-10 Blazer R.I.P.-
iroc rims, guzzla drop, air shocks, hack-back exha

(in reply to swartlkk)
Post #: 107
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/22/2007 1:20:48 AM   
blaze1002

 

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More like Dex-NOT-cool! I have a bad story about it. I have an 01 that started overheating and losing coolant when summer started. After reading up on Dexcool, I decided to go with a flush and getting some fresh green stuff. I don't know what happened, but I opened the overflow and it looked like someone poured a gallon of used oil in the thing. We took it out, hosed it, cleaned it, and put it in a parts washer for over an hour, and it was still black on the inside! The coolant after the flush was all nasty and brown and sludgy. Just plain ol' bad news. I'm happy to say that green is running fine and staying very cool even in 110+ degree heat while off roading. And that's where I need it! I do know people who have no problems with the stuff, and that's great. But in my opinion; there's nothing cool, about dexcool. Thanks for listenin' to my story!

(in reply to TwistinChrome)
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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/22/2007 8:53:55 AM   
swartlkk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistinChrome
I've personally resealed about 500+ GM intakes, maybe 5 had green coolant in them.  So it sounds to me like you have more website memberships than work experience...

All I'm saying is Dex-Cool is far more problematic than the green stuff.  Any dyed-in-the-wool GM guy or girl can agree with that.  Is that too much to state?   

LOL  You've got me.  I do way too much time reading and don't ever get my hands dirty. LMAO!!!  You're great!  ROTF...  I don't have to say anything more than what has already been said in this thread.  If you haven't taken the time to read through it, then please do so now.  Please take note of the other few GM techs that we have here and their opinions.

Also, please go read up on BonnevilleClub.com.  MANY, MANY members there were of the EXACT opinion as those here until many of them swapped out their intake manifold gaskets and went with EG coolant.  Only to have failures in the EXACT same manner later on.  Why do you think that the lawsuits that started out as being against GM for Dexcool have now changed their tune.  Now they are all about poor intake gasket design.  Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

That's all I have to say.  Time to go swap out the starter on my Dad's pickup.  Oh wait, that's right, I only read and can't actually do mechanical work...  Please

< Message edited by swartlkk -- 9/22/2007 9:04:47 AM >


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Kyle-

2004 Rainier
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1974 K5 Blazer - Resto

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/30/2007 5:57:56 AM   
MIDDEN1

 

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i have had nothing but bad luck with dex cool.
i just changed to the prestone green stuff
would anyone know the coolant capacity of 2000 blazer

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 9/30/2007 6:05:35 AM   
swartlkk


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Capacity is ~3 gallons (11.7 quarts to be exact).  Buy 2 gallons of coolant (not 50/50 mix) and 8 or so gallons of distilled water.  When you flush through, do your final flush with about 6 gallons of distilled water.  Then drain it out as best you can.  Dump in 1.5 gallons of straight coolant.  Then top off with distilled water.  You should be left with a half gallon of both distilled water and coolant.  Pour the distilled water into the coolant and use this to fill up the overflow bottle after cleaning it.

Also, take the time to replace the thermostat and radiator cap.  Stant caps are what GM recommends (funny isn't it).  Also, inspect the hoses for any abrasions or signs of aging.  Replace it now so you don't have to later on. 

I recommend the yellow prestone - Prestone All Makes All Models Extended Life coolant that is dex compatible so you don't have any mixing issues if you don't get it completely flushed out.

Hope this helps!

< Message edited by swartlkk -- 9/30/2007 6:10:00 AM >


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Kyle-

2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/3/2007 6:03:18 AM   
BTJustice

 

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I came across this thread during a web search.  After reading all of it in its entirety, I had to register just to share a few things...

Dex-Cool is ethylene glycol (EG) coolant just like G-05, old-type green coolant (what Prestone use to make), and new-type green coolant (what Zerex green is which has lower silicate levels than the old Prestone coolant).  Japanese coolant is also EG.  Prestone did make a propylene glycol (PG) coolant, but it is not all that much better for the environment than EG.  PG doesn't work any better than EG or vice versa.

Old-type green and new-type green coolants are EG IAT (inorganic additive technology) coolants.  Old-type green had a heavy load of phosphates and silicates.  Even if you could find old-type green, I would STRONGLY recommend not using it as a Dex-Cool replacement.  Zerex has improved it by using less silicates and increasing its service life to 5 years/100,000 miles (which I call new-type green).  The new-type green is an excellent replacement for Dex-Cool.

Dex-Cool is an EG OAT (organic acid technology) coolant.  It contains no phosphates and no silicates.

G-05 is an EG HOAT (hybrid organic acid technology) coolant.  It is somewhat similar to Dex-Cool but it differs in some of the inhibitors used and that is contains silicates.  The silicates make it a hybrid.

Most Japanese coolants are also EG HOAT but use phosphates instead of silicates.

The green Prestone All Makes All Models, the green Wal-Mart SuperTech, and the Peak Global coolants are all formulated EXACTLY like Dex-Cool.  The reason they don't advertise as Dex-Cool is to bypass the licensing fees they would have to pay to GM.  In order to do this, they are dyed green, gold, and other colors.

Dex-Cool does eat gaskets.  One of its ingredients is 2-Ethylhexanoic Acid (aka 2-EHA) which is a plastic softener.  A study confirmed Dex-Cool eats silicone and nylon...

http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part3.php

"Those companies included heavy duty manufacturers Caterpillar, Cummins and International. He authored two technical papers, derived from thousands of hours of testing, focusing on the effects that DEX’s corrosion inhibitors have on rubber and plastic gaskets and seals, including GM’s IMGs in question. He concludes that the two are incompatible because DEX OAT inhibitors degrade both silicone and nylon, of which these gaskets are made."

The above link also has information on the class action lawsuit against GM in regards to Dex-Cool which is now happening is Missouri.

The old-type green coolant Prestone use to make is no longer made and cannot be found in stores.  THANKFULLY, Zerex makes a new-type green coolant which has a lower amount of silicates so it is ideal for both automotive and diesel applications.  The new Zerex green coolant also lasts 5 years/100,000 miles...

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=8
http://www.valvoline.com/products/zerexoriginal.pdf

Shell also makes a green coolant that sounds like it is similar to the new Zerex green coolant, but I cannot find any info on it in regards to how long it lasts...

http://www.shell.com/home/page/us-en/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/automotive/app_automotive_automotive_products.html (This is for the pre-diluted version)
http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/Shellzone.pdf

Zerex also mak

< Message edited by BTJustice -- 12/4/2007 6:12:53 AM >

(in reply to swartlkk)
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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/3/2007 12:15:43 PM   
swartlkk


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That is a very well thought out post.  Thank you!

I will 'clarify' your statement that Dexcool 'eats' gaskets though.  As a plastic softener, it truly does not eat the gasket.  As the over molded o-ring material softens, it also expands which in turn breaks the weakest point in the gasket frame.  As time passes, a leak forms and the cooling system is compromised.  The deformation of the frame due to excessive torque severely shortens the life of the gasket as well.

I think we all can agree that GM dropped the ball on the choice of materials for its intake manifold gaskets.  These same materials have shown degradation on the same order with the use of common EG replacement green coolants which is somewhat expected through what BTJustice posted above about the formulations of EG coolants recently. 

Through reading Prestone's white papers a few years back, they played their coolant off as the best of both worlds with additive packages with higher silicate levels.  Now maybe that isn't so true.  I'll have to look into that a bit further. 

I do know that Zerex makes a great coolant, but it isn't always the easiest stuff to find.  Although I am seeing it around on shelves more now.  It has always worked flawlessly in all of my dad's JD tractors.

As I have stated throughout this thread, I am no fan of Dexcool, but this discussion would not have garnered anywhere near the response that it has if someone didn't play the role that I did.

It is nice to see that IMCOOL.com is keeping this stuff together.  For the longest time all of their information was so scattered and hardly legible that you couldn't make sense of it.

< Message edited by swartlkk -- 12/3/2007 12:20:35 PM >


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2004 Rainier
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1974 K5 Blazer - Resto

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Post #: 113
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/3/2007 8:05:57 PM   
BTJustice

 

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Thanks man.  It has been a topic I have researched and have dealt with for almost 10 years now.  The Zerex new-type green and their other coolants are somewhat hard to find.  We have a few Farm & Home Supply stores in my area and they all carry it, but you will not find Zerex at Advance Auto Parts, O'reilly's, or Wal-Fart which sucks, but I think more and more people will discover that there is currently no such thing as an All Makes All Models coolant.  You could probably order Zerex coolant directly from Zerex/Valvoline.

As I stated earlier, Prestone and SuperTech are both Dex-Cool clones.  They have the exact same formulation.  They are just dyed green instead of red to bypass licensing fees for the Dex-Cool name.  Just as a rule of thumb, Dex-Cool, G-05, real green, and Japanese coolants are all about 95% EG with 2% distilled water.  The remaining 3% is the dye and inhibitor package used.  The reason coolant needs to be changed is due to the inhibitor package wearing out or the coolant failing (Dex-Cool mud) or the need and/or desire to do it arises.

Most diesel truckers run a fleet formulation that is actually similar to the Zerex new-type green coolant that has an added inhibitor package put into it.  They will run it 300,000 miles then simply pour in a new shot of this certain inhibitor package without flushing out the cooling system and keep on trucking for another 300,000 miles which is when the cooling system is typically flushed out in those trucks.

Zerex also makes a special formulation for the Navy Seals for the boats they use on their covert missions.  Pretty cool huh?

< Message edited by BTJustice -- 12/4/2007 1:59:54 AM >

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/16/2007 10:55:21 AM   
BTJustice

 

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Earlier last week, I flushed Dex-Cool mud from 2003 Chevy S-10 with a 4.3L engine.  I replaced the Dex-Cool with John Deere Cool-Gard which is a G-05 formulation dyed green.  It also has SCA already in it.  So far everything is great with the Cool-Gard.

http://www.hitachiconstruction.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/parts/coolants.html
http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/partsinfo/coolants/coolants_coolgard.html
http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/partsinfo/coolants/coolants_competitive_comparisons.html

< Message edited by BTJustice -- 12/16/2007 10:58:08 AM >

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/16/2007 1:28:55 PM   
Tippman7641


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i had black rocks(yeah i was that bad) so bad that the guy at he shop had to do a flush for free (79.00 usually) TWICE, i then when i got home i removed the overflow tank and dumped a verity of soaps in it scrubed it out with a wirebrush then completely rinised it out with a hose, and put fresh coolant in, then a day afther i had to clean it agatn probly becasue of dirt that fell of when it was running afther that id manged to stay its orgional color

a menchix had one told me that it was a common problem with chevy, and soon other poeple id as well

so alhtoough it says you dont have to chage it for 150Kmile i recomend checking the state of it with each oil change (every 3,00 miles) and if its getting brown replace it,

ive used both reg and dex cool i think no matter what you use just makesure you change it when it starts to become brown

< Message edited by Tippman7641 -- 12/16/2007 1:33:24 PM >

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RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/17/2007 9:07:15 AM   
bobc997615

 

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I'll keep it simple:

1996 Impala SS, bought new, Dex-Cool bad within 3 years (30K), sold Impala at 71K miles
1999 Corvette, bought used, 73K miles, Dex-Cool looks great
2001 GMC Jimmy, Dex-Cool bad, clogging heater core, flushed, put in Global
1997 Cavalier Z24, Dex-Cool, OK
1999 Malibu, Dex-Cool Ok

BUT, I'm replacing with Global rather than Dex-Cool. I don't have to worry about any ill effects if I don't get all the antifreeze flushed out (mixes with green or orange).

(in reply to swartlkk)
Post #: 117
RE: WHO'S HAD GOOD LUCK WITH DEX-COOL - 12/17/2007 5:56:48 PM   
pullbangdead

 

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I've had bad luck with Dex, at least in the form it came to me in.  Got a 1996 4wd 2dr Blazer with ~54k miles in 2004.  In the first 1.5 years, the radiator, heater core, and water pump all went bad.  The coolant in evey case was dark brown/rust colored and thick sludge, expecially coming out of the heater core the first time we pulled it out (I say "first time" because the replacement heater core had a leak in it also, that was a royal pain to replace it TWICE).  The fluid was replaced with green, and the cooling system hasn't had any more problems since.  It's just passed 125k this week (including driving from North Carolina to Idaho and back this past summer).  I just find it hard to believe that the radiator, pump, and heater core all failed like that, all in very quick succession, without a system-wide problem.  I have no idea of the maintenance history of the car before I got it, but could maintenance alone have really been THAT bad as to result in failure in only 60k?

(in reply to bobc997615)
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