RE: Bosch 4 plugs
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 6:39:00 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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I been dealling with automotives long enough to say if you pay 130 dollars for a delco sensor your a dumb ****. lol If you go to a dealer to get parts your a dumb ****. Pardon my French. I only change my sensors when I get a used car and @50,000. I looked for some delco plugs and there are the same prices as Bosch. I been home mechanic not for fun but to save money and becuase all mechanics are ****ing assholes. Its been like 6 years I been messing around with cars but truthfully I only do stuff when I need too which for me does not happen often with scheduled maintence and quality parts knocking on wood. Like I said I speak from driving and feeling not from what people say. I just got my Blazer becuase I need to tow but I love imports all day. I worked in motor pools for another four years too. Its too bad you do not have a blazer lol. I got me the 2dr too damn that thing is nice. I paid 3800 for a 97 blazer 4wd with 67000 on it. Immaculate and the best thing is the guy that I bought it from had all the paper work on the service like oil changes ever 3 months lol Like winning the lottery.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:08:36 PM
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drkmelvin
Posts: 463
Joined: 10/21/2005
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Well, that would exlpain why you love Bosch so much... All import (riceracers) love Bosch to a point that it would make you sick. I mean, come on, when someone lists Bosch plugs as a performance mod, you know something is wrong. Also, the six years you have been working on cars constitutes nothing for experience and says you are more of a backyard oilchanger than a mechanic. 90% of the people on this forum work on their vehicles because they enjoy it, or they enjoy modifying the performance of it... not because they feel garages are all assholes. I'm not trying to rag on you, but you have to realize when enough is enough. The amount of knowledge that Swartlkk has on general, and advanced mechanics is incredible, and whatever he dosn't know he asks, and learns. I've been turning wrenches for at least 15 years, built countless projects...racecars, bikes, you name it, but the amount of knowledge he holds amazes me. He dosn't speak unless he his sure of his facts, and you really need to stop arguing about a damn o2 sensor. YOU WILL NOT WIN THIS ARGUEMENT...QUIT WHILE YOU STILL CAN.
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Bottles are for babies...I'd rather be BLOWN !!!
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:35:04 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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THERE HAS BEEN NO NEED TO CURSE! None what so ever. How old are you, Seriously! This was a pretty heated discussion, allbeit one way, but your choice to drop down to the lowest level of internet trolls is despicable. Now onto your post...
Ok, so by your own admittance, you really don't know a whole lot about things you are passing off as the God's given truth.
Check.
I paid $72 for an AC Delco sensor (the total came to ~$160 for 2). They can be purchased online for ~$60+s&h, but I have an AC Delco retailer in the town where I work. The reason why I installed the Delco's instead of saving $30-$40 or even $60 to get the Bosch was because I KNOW for a fact that the Delco sensors will be good for a VERY long time. In all of my experiences (again MANY O2 sensor changes on MANY different vehicles - heavily weighted towards GM vehicles), an AC Delco O2 sensor will have a much longer life than a Bosch. As sensors age, they ALL gradually get more and more lazy in their response to changes in the air fuel ratio. If the Delco's start out more active than the Bosch and degrade at the same rate, logic states that the Delcos will last longer. I have seen this with my scans of my parents '97 STS. Now that's one sensor, but when I can read the same thing on other GM vehicle forums, it wasn't just an isolated incident.
The degradation of an oxygen sensor isn't a linear regression, but an exponential one. So in fact, if the sensor is say twice as active, when the lazy sensor fails, the more active sensor will still be pretty damn close to the activity level from when it was new. It isn't until later on in the sensors life that its activity starts to decline more and more rapidly. Simple knowledge of a closed loop fuel system lends itself to this theory (and that's all it is). As an oxygen sensor gets lazy, it can't change the IPW (injector pulse width) quick enough to keep up with the dynamics of the engine. So it will stay lean/rich longer before switching and probably over shoot. If the engine can see the AFR (air fuel ratio) leveling off before it reaches it's peak, it will start to dial back\increase the IPW, forecasting what will happen. A more active O2 sensor should waste less fuel in the rich to lean to rich cycle that happens many times a second in OBD2 ('96 & newer GM vehicles).
Better check my sig alittle closer. A Bravada IS a Blazer with nicer appointments standard. A Blazer can be optioned out the same as my Bravada, but a Bravada cannot be purchased as barebones as some of the lower trim level Blazers.
Check it out:
It's a Blazer with a different grill, bumper cover and different ground effects.
Speaking of driving and feeling... A lazy (but not to the point of throwing a code) O2 sensor will not exhibit any driveability concerns until it degrades to the point at which performance will suffer. After which you are sucked into purchasing a new sensor. As a further FYI, bad plugs can shorten the life of a good O2 sensor just the same as a bad O2 sensor can shorten the life of a good plug.
True, Bosch +4's cost approximately the same as the AC Delco Double Platinums. My concern is not with the price comparison, but with the fact that Bosch +4s have never, EVER been shown to have any benefit over conventional single ground plugs in independant testing. None of the multiple ground plugs that have been introduced have any merit, plain and simple. In the one case that I have had direct experience with them, I can say that the other 3 grounds straps do nothing but take up space. When BRAND new, they may have resulted in more available paths, but the spark will only travel to one strap per coil pulse. Sooner or later, one perferred path will develope and it will be rendered exactly the same as a conventional plug.
Ok I've been jumping back and forth in this small quick reply window for too lon
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:41:21 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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Melvin you should have swart posing for you instead of that chick. No offense swart. Plugs are not exactly a performance mod and do not know where you read I said that. It seems everyone is a race car builder in this forum damn. If I was a race car builder I would not be on this forum I tell you that much.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:48:53 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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LOL, yeah right. Well, in your MPG thread, you state:
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivannj
Oh That was on an automatic too. MY upgrades are cia, a tornado, bosch a-4 plugs and Royal purple with K&N oil filter. I can not wait till I put on pullies and exhuast and msd ignition. I be getting like 30mpg. The ratings for my car are 21mpg.
LINK to said quote.
upgrade = mod... NEXT PLEASE.
No we are not all race car builders, but I atleast dislike it when someone comes on making claims with no merit. Those claims may lead an unknowing new guy down a path of disappointment because there really is nothing to be gained from said claims.
Now why did you have to go picking on Melv? He did nothing to you. I'm the one you have a problem with and I'm right here! Don't try to pass off on the issue at hand because you lost any kind of respect you may have had.
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:49:58 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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Also in the quote, you state an oil and oil filter as an upgrade. Oil and filters ARE not upgrades either.
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 7:59:01 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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I like that sig but Like two doors more a little two big for me. I am sick of argueing about this subject with you. What type of oil you use.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 8:05:04 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
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You already know the answer to that. Mobil 1. For the change interval I use (5000 miles), there is absolutely no difference between Amsoil, Mobil 1, and (eek) Royal Purple, but that is a discussion for another debunk the myths thread of yours.
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 8:09:39 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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Upgrades are diferent from mods agreed yeah.
The stuff I did were upgrades to the truck. Useing regular oil rather than Royal purple is a upgrade right you are uprading to a better oil with better performance results. A K&N filter is a upgrade from having a no name oil filter that cost 2 bucks. More oil circulations and bigger cavity for more oil and stronger too. Now the plugs was an upgrade to stock 1.50 plugs. I am telling you what I have done and how it made it better what more merit is there. I would like to hook it up to computers and stuff but not that techincal.. I gained almost 5 gallons a miles just by doing what I did. Notice I did not say o2 as a upgrade.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 8:11:48 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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I hope you use fully senthetic mobil 1. If not I am done talking to you.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 8:13:27 PM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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You will extend the life of you engine if you change oil ever 3 thousand miles or 3 months.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/29/2005 8:35:42 PM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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Ok... Upgrades on any other board I'm on are synonymous with mods. Stock plugs for your '97 Blazer were AC Delco Double Platinums. Switching to the Bosch +4 (or a-4 plug as you call it) was not an upgrade in any way as I have stated numerous times that the +4s have never and will never be proven to increase ANYTHING.
Please, by all means let this thread die gracefully. Stop talking crap. For your information Mobil 1 IS a synthetic. Mobil oils (without the 1) are typically conventional oils and or blends. I hate to keep on doing this to you, but the 3000mile/3month oil change is just a myth. Heck, I can go longer with the Mobil 1 right now, but why take the risk. I have had my oil analyzed on several occassions from my Bonneville and it was always 50% oil life remaining from the local lab. And I change my oil when the oil life indicator gets down below 25% oil life remaining. The oil life indicator on my Bonneville is based off of engine revolutions and calculated engine load compared with emperical data from testing. On both occasions my Bonneville's mileage was well over 8k miles before I got nervous and changed it. I always run the 4.3L filter (1" longer than the stock 3800 filter) on my Bonneville which is probably why it is getting good oil life.
Oh and the $2.56 (at Sears) Purolator Plus filter is just as good of a filter as K&N. Actually filters out smaller particle sizes than the K&N. So what if it doesn't flow as well. Flow matters to a point, but a quality filter (Mobil 1, AC Delco, Purolator, PureOne, Napa Gold, Wix and K&N) is what matters most. Fram is absolute crap, but again, not on topic with this thread, but since you brought it up and started this thread, I guess it's ok. Of those quality filters I listed, the ones of choice for me are the Purolator Plus and/or PureOne (both made by Purolator). The PureOne is a nicer filter that flows a bit better.
For all your oil & filter information, check out:
Oil Filter Study - Construction and materials used only
Another Oil Filter Study with flow tests - take note of the K&N flow and filtration effectiveness vs others listed above
Another one, but I don't agree with their Fram X2 comments
Bob is the Oil Guy - My defacto first stop for anything oil related.
Here is an absolutely independent test comparing Mobil 1 and Amsoil. Independent Synthetic Oil Study
< Message edited by swartlkk -- 11/29/2005 8:39:14 PM >
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/30/2005 1:31:44 AM
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drkmelvin
Posts: 463
Joined: 10/21/2005
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One last thing... Do you put stickers on your car and claim they add horsepower too? I just lost more braincells reading your posts...not to be rude, but how many forums have you left due to stupid e-arguements that you have started?...
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< Message edited by drkmelvin -- 11/30/2005 1:33:25 AM >
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Bottles are for babies...I'd rather be BLOWN !!!
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/30/2005 2:09:34 AM
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ivannj
Posts: 321
Joined: 11/2/2005
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This thread is the stupidest one I agree. I tell you what though I will still buy bosch over delco so it does not matter what you guys say. BMW, Benz, Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, all use bosch and why not delco. I will go by what the best cars use.
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RE: Bosch 4 plugs - 11/30/2005 5:18:55 AM
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swartlkk
Posts: 14308
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Waterloo, NY
Status: offline
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Well, for those applications, they may work. The reason why they don't use Delco is because AC Delco was originally a GM owned and operated company, way back when.
Fine don't listen to first hand knowledge, reason, and simple logic. PISS OFF! Damn you are one dumb kid. If you want to go spending double and maybe triple the $$$ to use the Bosch sensor, go right ahead. If you keep your Blazer for 1-3 years, I can tell you that you will be replacing them in that time span while you wouldn't have a problem with the Delco's. Not to mention the monetary loss due to poor fuel mileage before the sensor actually craps out as well as the need for new plugs when they finally do go.
Your logic on if BMW, Benz, etc, etc use it is absolute bull crap. Different application, different sensor, different freakin' EVERYTHING. That's kind of like saying that because BMW Z8 comes with Michelin Ultrahigh performance tires and handles like it's on rails that if you put those tires on your Blazer, it'll handle like its on rails. Its just a stupid comparison. I'm sure there are applications where Bosch sensors work perfectly well. I have stated in another thread of yours that I have had some luck with Bosch sensors in Mopar (Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler) applications (some luck - not always). It's a crap shoot at best. To broaden out my stance, I'd go so far as to say that the Bosch O2 sensors in domestic applications are not the best, but far from the worst. In GM applications, nothing compares with the Delco's. PERIOD. Quit beating a dead horse!
I'm done with this.
This thread was in no way stupid until you dropped a few rungs on the evolutionary ladder. The information I presented was clear, concise and pretty much irrefutable.
< Message edited by swartlkk -- 11/30/2005 5:20:09 AM >
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Kyle-
2004 Rainier
1970 Chevelle - Resto
1974 K5 Blazer - Resto
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